The idea of God always existing

[pocaracas]

What?
How do I know the characteristics of a Creator entity?
I don't.
You're the one who claims to know.

I guess I should've rephrased the question to: "How don't you know?"

How would I know?
All the information regarding all the deities that I am aware of has come to me through the vehicle of flawed human beings.
How did they come about to possess all this knowledge about such an array of deities?
If they came to have this knowledge, why can't I come about it in the same way?

Are you seriously going for the god of the gaps?

No...just that mystery is a part of everyday life.

ah, the mysteries that science keeps hellbent on uncovering!

Well, you have good points for not believing in God. But, if one is to search for a meaning he has to do it with an open mind. I don't find atheists to be a very open-minded bunch...

The first question has to be why ? The only answer it can be is LOVE.
That is usually good but for the majority of "believers". It wasn't (at first) for me.

The second question then has to be how ? This is actually the hard question! How are we to think like God? What [Grand Plan] can it be that would present us with what we have today?

But, if you have an imagination, an open mind and yes Faith...it can make sense. Remember, what people ONLY imagined 100 years ago...even 50 years ago is reality today! So, lets use 2 outta 3?

Faith and open mindedness.
I consider myself to be open minded. In fact, it was this open mindedness that got me into atheism. When I was about 10 year old, it got me to consider the possibility that there's no god. At the time, I thought that everyone on Earth believed in god, so I just kept quiet about it... eventually, I came to learn I wasn't alone on this subject, and that was comforting.

Now, let's have faith and open-mindedness.
Have faith... in what? faith in god? which god? Why would I pick one out of the crowd of gods that man has worshiped throughout the ages? How would I begin to choose one?
If I pick one, what does that make of all the others? man-made, I guess? What is the fail-proof criteria I have to use to decide that one god is real and the rest are just imagined?
If I fail to find a reason to consider one god as the real one, does that mean that they are all man-made?

How did you do it? How did you choose?
Did you choose? Or someone else chose it for you and you just believed that person(s), and you random bible opening just "confirmed" it?

This is what I call open-mindedness: put all the options on the table and consider them.
All these options and the lack of, you know, gods interfering in my life have led me to attribute a much higher probability to the possibility that all gods are man-made. Hence, I am atheist.

I started my search around my mid-twenties. I was in my grandma's attic with boxes of books around me that I was cleaning out for her... I pickup and easy-read Holy Bible called "Good News". Someone had told me once if I asked a sincere question, then opened the bible I would get an answer!

So... I sat on one of those boxes, alone (with God) and asked "THE" question that any Christian worth his salt should ask: "Why did Christ die for my sins?" .... I opened the book to: page #377...Romans 5:18.
And there it was.... under a stickman picture of Jesus on the cross the words read: "One rightous act sets all men free, and gives them life."

Of course being very much less than a biblical scholar...this one line asked more questions than it answered for me. But, it put me onto a path to finally connect those dots over time.

I think I should stop at this point. If my continuing interests you pocaracas, then I will. If not, I won't. I've already said more to you about my spiritual path than I've told most of my Chrisitian friends....

1. Because they probably don't need me to tell them anything to increase their faith or understanding.

2. I don't usually talk about "my road", because it's not really ortodox christianity...but that wouldn't matter (I think?) to you.

You are the second guy in this forum to present "random bible opening" as evidence for the existence of the christian god. The other guy, after some probing, turned out to keep opening the bible at random until he landed in a page that had the verse he was after.... how about you? How often does that work?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

You are the second guy in this forum to present "random bible opening" as evidence for the existence of the christian god. The other guy, after some probing, turned out to keep opening the bible at random until he landed in a page that had the verse he was after.... how about you? How often does that work?

Off-topic;
This reminds me of my girlfriend...every now and than she is suprised by the clock;

'Again it's 22:22... This cannot be a coincidence... '

ofcourse it's harmless nonsense and I like it.

[pocaracas]

You are the second guy in this forum to present "random bible opening" as evidence for the existence of the christian god. The other guy, after some probing, turned out to keep opening the bible at random until he landed in a page that had the verse he was after.... how about you? How often does that work?

Off-topic;
This reminds me of my girlfriend...every now and than she is suprised by the clock;

'Again it's 22:22... This cannot be a coincidence... '

ofcourse it's harmless nonsense and I like it.

And often, when I'm charging my mobile from the laptop's USB port, I check the time and notice that the battery is at 69%...Happens almost every other day! It's god telling me something, right?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Off-topic;
This reminds me of my girlfriend...every now and than she is suprised by the clock;

'Again it's 22:22... This cannot be a coincidence... '

ofcourse it's harmless nonsense and I like it.

And often, when I'm charging my mobile from the laptop's USB port, I check the time and notice that the battery is at 69%...Happens almost every other day! It's god telling me something, right?

God is indeed urging you into that specific sexual position

[TarShoduze]

I just think that believing the Big Bang always existing is easier than the god idea. I mean, something made with atoms has GOT to exist, right? As Albert Einstein said that "energy is never wasted, just converted" (or something similar), I'd go with the idea of an extremely (infinitely?) dense matter exploding rather than a non-matter thing churning out extra atoms... Correct my view if I'm wrong, just thought I'd share.

[ronedee]

You are the second guy in this forum to present "random bible opening" as evidence for the existence of the christian god. The other guy, after some probing, turned out to keep opening the bible at random until he landed in a page that had the verse he was after.... how about you? How often does that work?

I'm not getting all the retorting, and speculation over specific quotes I've made in lieu of answers to those quotes...sometimes in the same sentence! You and others are reacting to the things that don't matter at all in the big picture. You ask for specifics...then tear them down line-by-line!

I "SAID" [about asking the bible]: "it asked more questions than it answered for me!"

If "random bible opening" was an intricate part of my life I would state it flat out. It isn't. I open the bible with an open mind...I'm not going to put God to the test everytime I open it! I shared a private thought and moment in my life to people who could give a ratz ass! LOL! What was I thinking?!

Plus....all the questions about "choosing a god", is kind of senseless. There can only be ONE GOD....yes according to most religions, and common sense. Unless your an ancient Greek, Roman, or Egyptian. And even they had an ultimate deity!

Use whatever name you like for the [one] God! And being a Christian is my path to God. But this is all wasted....

It seems we're not on the same page here. You have your mind made up. And.... I, and "others of Faith" are just for entertainment purposes only.

God is better served here with just "drive-by" remarks, or retorts. Because every little thing gets picked apart with all the intensity of hungry sharks, or buzzards. Seemingly all in an attempt to diminish the credibility of the purveyor.

We are not driven by the same things that make-up our psyche.

[downbeatplumb]

Plus....all the questions about "choosing a god", is kind of senseless. There can only be ONE GOD....yes according to most religions, and common sense. Unless your an ancient Greek, Roman, or Egyptian. And even they had an ultimate deity!

How about Hindus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_deities

To me the pantheistic view always seemed to make more sense than the divisive monotheisitic view.

gods are supposedly complex creatures, as evolution is the only way to get complexity of this level, a pantheon of gods predating the abrahamic god would be the minimum requirement.

In a way that is what we get, but not in the fact but in the idea of god. By looking at the past beliefs of the region you can see how the abrahamic religions were developed into the rather silly version we get today.

[Faith No More]

God is better served here with just "drive-by" remarks, or retorts. Because every little thing gets picked apart with all the intensity of hungry sharks, or buzzards. Seemingly all in an attempt to diminish the credibility of the purveyor.

That's how this forum is with everything, not just religious claims. If you're not fully willing to defend or elaborate on a claim, it's probably best not to share it. Of course, you could always put a disclaimer saying you are unwilling to go any deeper into what you're saying.

[pocaracas]

You are the second guy in this forum to present "random bible opening" as evidence for the existence of the christian god. The other guy, after some probing, turned out to keep opening the bible at random until he landed in a page that had the verse he was after.... how about you? How often does that work?

I'm not getting all the retorting, and speculation over specific quotes I've made in lieu of answers to those quotes...sometimes in the same sentence! You and others are reacting to the things that don't matter at all in the big picture. You ask for specifics...then tear them down line-by-line!

I "SAID" [about asking the bible]: "it asked more questions than it answered for me!"

If "random bible opening" was an intricate part of my life I would state it flat out. It isn't. I open the bible with an open mind...I'm not going to put God to the test everytime I open it! I shared a private thought and moment in my life to people who could give a ratz ass! LOL! What was I thinking?!

Indeed... that was unfortunate and uncalled for. Don't do it again while on this forum, or you might get some far worse replies.

Plus....all the questions about "choosing a god", is kind of senseless. There can only be ONE GOD....yes according to most religions, and common sense. Unless your an ancient Greek, Roman, or Egyptian. And even they had an ultimate deity!

Use whatever name you like for the [one] God! And being a Christian is my path to God. But this is all wasted....

As downbeatplumb mentioned, how do you account for hindus?
Why must there be only one god?
Most religions in the world, today, derive from the jews. That's why it's called the abrahamic god.
But by far most religions are polytheistic. You have....hmm... 3 monotheistic ones... jews, christians and muslims. I read somewhere that in all religions, there are about 2700 gods, that's 2697 outside these 3 most prominent religions of today. So, be a bit more careful with your word choice in the future!

It seems we're not on the same page here. You have your mind made up. And.... I, and "others of Faith" are just for entertainment purposes only.

God is better served here with just "drive-by" remarks, or retorts. Because every little thing gets picked apart with all the intensity of hungry sharks, or buzzards. Seemingly all in an attempt to diminish the credibility of the purveyor.

We are not driven by the same things that make-up our psyche.

I'm sorry that you think so.
I was just showing you my point of view on the things that you presented. I also tried to show you how my version of open-minded works. I'm not looking to beat you or anything, just show you how I think and how I'm not as close-minded as you may have assumed. Actually, from my point of view, it is you who is a bit close-minded. Closed and locked to the beliefs that were imprinted in your mind at an early age. about 99% of all believers are like this, so it shouldn't be a problem, to you.

[ronedee]

pocaracas, I see how this is going. It seems like you, and others use this forum as a barometer of sorts. Why care what others are thinking? Especially if we are expanding our minds! LOL...so-to-speak!

There's to be a standard of rebellion to live up to around here. I kind of scoped the place out for a week before I registered...you were one of the few who seemed capable of a decent, intelligent conversation w/o particular bias.

I wasn't brought up totally indoctinated....I have a father who was an atheist...but seems to be leaning agnostic as he gets older. I also have a younger brother that I'm very close to that is also agnostic. He's a super intelligent dude...graduated with distinguished honor from the Air Force Academy. We (him, my dad) and I have had many, MANY knock-down, drag-outs about religion at parties and family get togethers. We've cleared many a room! LOL! So, there aint many arguments I haven't heard...or battled about.

Like I said before, I am looking to challenge my Faith, but also to throw out (pardon the expression) fresh meat on the fires of atheism! But, I won't put years of what I feel is personal...and real progressiveness on "the story"....only to be ridiculed by someone, anyone who has given "it" 3 seconds of thought! Then everyone going down that dark road together.... It's infuriating to me. So...you won't see my theories all spelled out at once. It will be over time, if I'm to continue at all.

I have views that aren't wholly accepted by my Christian friends...but have been deduced from years of reflection on the scriptures, my faith...and yes...thinking! Mostly using my thinking in common sense terms.

I won't say that the thought process is used 100% in my theory...but it makes some sense...even to my old-man, and younger sibling!

I, like you, can be "brought down in flames" by the few (to be kind... obnoxious) regulars here. So excuse an occasional rant from time to time to blow-off steam...and I'll do the same for you!

I do have a busy life...if you met me in a room I'd be the very LAST person you would think is "Mother Theresa"! LOL! So... I'll be around preaching my theories when I can!

Maybe we can learn something from each other! Ron