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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 15, 2012 at 5:09 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2012 at 5:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 15, 2012 at 10:39 am)Ryft Wrote: It is possible, yes, although how that explanation is fleshed out will obviously depend on the "non-believer or a follower of another religion" to whom I am speaking (e.g., the extent of background information they already possess, their willingness to understand, their specific confusion and degree thereof, and so forth).
Sets up the "you just don't understand" excuse, the "your heart is hardened" excuse, and of course, the ever popular "no you're mistaken my translation is the correct one" excuse. All the while providing no explanation.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 15, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Quote:This is why not a single branch of Christianity follows or ever has followed OT law.
Took no time at all to demonstrate that you are a fucking liar on this one.
http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-c...erspective
Quote:Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.
In the Bible sodomy is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known. Let us look at the passages in question:
Why don't you ask Herr Von Popenfuhrer....if you can get him to stop ass-raping little boys long enough...what he thinks?
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 12:15 am
(May 15, 2012 at 5:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sets up the "you just don't understand" excuse, the "your heart is hardened" excuse, and of course, the ever popular "no you're mistaken my translation is the correct one" excuse. All the while providing no explanation.
1. If John says that X does not make sense, then I am entering the discussion already knowing that he does not understand. He frankly admitted it. My operating assumption is that John wants to understand; however, that assumption may prove false. Ergo, "their willingness to understand."
2. If the person is not a Christian, then I am entering the discussion already knowing that his "heart is hardened." That does not, however, preclude a fruitful discussion of the matter if he is willing to understand. (And most literate people should be able to grasp that "willing to understand" and "willing to believe" are two very different things; wanting to understand does not involve wanting to believe, so his hardened heart is not a relevant concern.)
3. Nowhere have I ever said to someone, "You're mistaken: my translation is the correct one." My concern is whether or not a translation is exegetically sound; if his translation is not exegetically sound (which his argument will make clear), then I will not accept it (and stick with the one that has proven to be).
Do you have any other delusional twaddle to offer?
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 3:44 am
(May 15, 2012 at 3:12 pm)Shell B Wrote: Yeah, they don't. That is why I do think the context is too difficult for Bible thumpers to comprehend. When you look at the context of the books, it becomes clear that they were written to keep an entirely different culture in line and yet you're marching to that same tune. Kind of a weird position to decide to be condescending from.
I don't know I think most Bible thumpers have a pretty good handle on context, even the most basic NAB Bible has all sorts of notes on cultures and languages of the time (since the many books of the Bible were not written in just a single cultural context either, each one needs to be considered separately).
I don't think Christians are marching to the same tune either.
(May 15, 2012 at 5:38 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Took no time at all to demonstrate that you are a fucking liar on this one. Quoting the OT != following OT law.
Mary Immaculate, star of the morning
Chosen before the creation began
Chosen to bring for your bridal adorning
Woe to the serpent and rescue to man.
Sinners, we honor your sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for your pity we plead;
Grand us the shield of your sovereign protection,
Measure your aid by the depth of our need.
Bend from your throne at the voice of our crying,
Bend to this earth which your footsteps have trod;
Stretch out your arms to us, living and dying,
Mary Immaculate, Mother of God.
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 8:11 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2012 at 8:29 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 16, 2012 at 12:15 am)Ryft Wrote: 1. If John says that X does not make sense, then I am entering the discussion already knowing that he does not understand. He frankly admitted it. My operating assumption is that John wants to understand; however, that assumption may prove false. Ergo, "their willingness to understand."
Or maybe, just maybe, it actually doesn't make any sense at all. "It makes sense you just don't understand" is pretty common apologetic trash. It doesn't fly when others peddle it, why would it fly when you peddle it?
Quote:2. If the person is not a Christian, then I am entering the discussion already knowing that his "heart is hardened." That does not, however, preclude a fruitful discussion of the matter if he is willing to understand. (And most literate people should be able to grasp that "willing to understand" and "willing to believe" are two very different things; wanting to understand does not involve wanting to believe, so his hardened heart is not a relevant concern.)
You know no such thing, you simply believe it. Yet another garbage religious claim, which you are likely to be incorrect about. Case in point, I can easily understand why people believe in their respective religious traditions, but I rarely find their reasons compelling with regards to the belief itself (though I often find that their reasons are not completely alien to me, common experience of humanity etc). In what way, precisely, does this make my "heart hardened"?
Quote:3. Nowhere have I ever said to someone, "You're mistaken: my translation is the correct one." My concern is whether or not a translation is exegetically sound; if his translation is not exegetically sound (which his argument will make clear), then I will not accept it (and stick with the one that has proven to be).
Do you have any other delusional twaddle to offer?
Never had any to begin with. You're confusing me with the kind of person who assumes that magic and curses are real, and then works forward from that point to explain how people "don't understand", have "hardened hearts", and "bad translations".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 8:23 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2012 at 8:24 am by Epimethean.)
'If the person is not a Christian, then I am entering the discussion already knowing that his "heart is hardened."'
LOL!!! Did he sneak that bit of rubbish in there? OK, so the answer to my questions to Ryft is a resounding "No."
Trying to update my sig ...
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Quote:Quoting the OT != following OT law.
Those were xtians quoting it as "scripture", stupid.
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 12:27 pm
Worship in the NT is still as pointless and degrading as it was in the OT.
Personally, I'd rather people do something more meaningful and productive with their lives, although given how monumentally thick some hominids out there are, hours of mindless prayer and devotion to a "super-being" is probably the best thing they'll ever accomplish.
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RE: The division between OT worship and NT worship
May 16, 2012 at 12:35 pm
(May 16, 2012 at 12:27 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: Worship in the NT is still as pointless and degrading as it was in the OT.
Personally, I'd rather people do something more meaningful and productive with their lives, although given how monumentally thick some hominids out there are, hours of mindless prayer and devotion to a "super-being" is probably the best thing they'll ever accomplish.
The truly sad thing is worthy being are starving while the prayerful are fed.
He who thanks jesus for his food doesn't deserve to eat.
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