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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 9, 2012 at 8:12 pm
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2012 at 8:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What else didn't god create, and if things can come into existence without gods involvement than why not ourselves (or indeed the entirety of the cosmos)?
Can you give me a single example beyond sin of something that god didn't create, or is this an attempt to wash the blood off your masters hands for the only thing you don't want to claim as his own?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm
(June 9, 2012 at 6:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: Massively wrong, God did not create sin, sin came into the creation after God had finished creating.
As the story goes, YHWH created man with the capacity to sin, and did nothing to inhibit it (beyond saying, "don't do that").
To-may-to, To-mah-to. Semantics.
Leaving aside the veracity of the story for the moment, YHWH either did or did not intend to create man with a propensity to sin. If he did, he's culpable. If he didn't, he's incompetent (as an omni-x deity).
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 10, 2012 at 3:05 am
(June 9, 2012 at 8:26 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (June 9, 2012 at 6:00 pm)Godschild Wrote: Massively wrong, God did not create sin, sin came into the creation after God had finished creating.
As the story goes, YHWH created man with the capacity to sin, and did nothing to inhibit it (beyond saying, "don't do that").
To-may-to, To-mah-to. Semantics.
Leaving aside the veracity of the story for the moment, YHWH either did or did not intend to create man with a propensity to sin. If he did, he's culpable. If he didn't, he's incompetent (as an omni-x deity).
Your opinion has no scriptural backing, God did not create man to sin, He created man with free will. He did not force man not to sin, what kind of tyrant would God have been if He created man and then forced him to do only what God knows is best for man. If He had done that you would still be screaming blood murder, except you would do it very quite, so God would not strike you with a lightning bolt, because you dare disagree with Him.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 10, 2012 at 7:12 am
“Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”
— David Hume
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm
(June 10, 2012 at 3:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Your opinion has no scriptural backing, God did not create man to sin, He created man with free will. He did not force man not to sin,
That's not what I said. Free will is, in xtian doctrine, the capacity to choose between acting in accordance with god's will or not. In other words, to sin, or not sin. Therefore, if god created man with free will, god created man with the capacity to sin.
You should note that the second paragraph isn't a claim that god created man with the propensity to sin. It's a hypothetical device intended to subtly illustrate the absurdity of both the claims of omniscience and for the absence of responsibility for his creation.
If god creates the capacity of sin, and is omniscient, he knows man will sin. Creating something with a known outcome makes one responsible for said outcome. At least that's the case for humans - and I tend to think that deities ought to be held to a higher standard. Or rather, I would think so, if they existed.
(June 10, 2012 at 3:05 am)Godschild Wrote: what kind of tyrant would God have been if He created man and then forced him to do only what God knows is best for man. If He had done that you would still be screaming blood murder, except you would do it very quite, so God would not strike you with a lightning bolt, because you dare disagree with Him.
Let's not forget that I don't believe a word of it to begin with, so statements about what I would or would not do are kind of silly.
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 11, 2012 at 3:46 am
(June 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: (June 10, 2012 at 3:05 am)Godschild Wrote: Your opinion has no scriptural backing, God did not create man to sin, He created man with free will. He did not force man not to sin,
That's not what I said. Free will is, in xtian doctrine, the capacity to choose between acting in accordance with god's will or not. In other words, to sin, or not sin. Therefore, if god created man with free will, god created man with the capacity to sin.
You should note that the second paragraph isn't a claim that god created man with the propensity to sin. It's a hypothetical device intended to subtly illustrate the absurdity of both the claims of omniscience and for the absence of responsibility for his creation.
If god creates the capacity of sin, and is omniscient, he knows man will sin. Creating something with a known outcome makes one responsible for said outcome. At least that's the case for humans - and I tend to think that deities ought to be held to a higher standard. Or rather, I would think so, if they existed.
(June 10, 2012 at 3:05 am)Godschild Wrote: what kind of tyrant would God have been if He created man and then forced him to do only what God knows is best for man. If He had done that you would still be screaming blood murder, except you would do it very quite, so God would not strike you with a lightning bolt, because you dare disagree with Him.
Let's not forget that I don't believe a word of it to begin with, so statements about what I would or would not do are kind of silly.
Like the one you made about God being held to a higher standard by His creation, good luck with that.
God made man with the free will to choose between Him and anything else, outside of that all bets might be off.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.
June 11, 2012 at 8:12 am
Did god create the "anything else"?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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