God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

[The Grand Nudger]

Because God said so.

In what way do you think this is different from your last non-explanation?

I do, and be patient, every journey begins with the first step.

Judging by the above I don't think that you do....and if we're going to go on any journeys you are going to have to at least take a single step....yes.

If you have a serious question then ask.

I already did. Do you have a serious answer?

Maybe this is why God requires such a steep price for sin.

I don't think you understand Drich. It's a price I'm unwilling to pay. I will not reach into my pocket and pull out a handful of someone elses blood to excuse my own inequities..whatever they may be. I don't care how pretty the gardens on the other side of the gate are..I refuse to pay the price that the gatekeeper is said to demand.

So that 'we' can have a very good understanding of what type of deity he is.

That's precisely the problem....this price does lead me to an opinion of what you want this diety to be..of what this diety is said to be. It's horrid on the face of it...but if it's not even possible to explain how it works it becomes even more disgusting. A shell game where the cards are replaced with corpses.

If he has indeed given a will apart from his own then someone somewhere will not agree or like Him or what He does.

And someone somewhere may just have the most compelling reasons imaginable for that disagreement. That doesn't leave god in any position of authority Drich.

Again maybe things like the need for a blood sacerfice (and the fact that He provided it for you on your behalf) are to help seperate the sheep from the goats.

Maybe those who would accept it are the goats? There is no fact in your statement btw Drich, what a pathetic attempt.

Not everyone wants to be with God,

Clearly.

and if you can figure out that you do not want, or if you feel that their should not be a need for this sort of thing then turn towards eternity in full confidence that God will not Make you serve Him. that He will keep you seperated from him and everything you believe to be unjust about Him.

Everything eh? I don't think you'll let him do that...nor do I think he is ever said to make the claim that he's willing to do that himself.

I can offer only what your question or comment requires me to offer. You will ultimatly judge it worthy or dismiss it.

My questions and comments require nothing. But you are here to explain these things aren't you? This is your work here.....and you clearly feel at least marginally confident in your abilities to perform what you came here to do. I'll consider your explanation on it's merits.....if you ever get around to forming one.

[Darkstar]

Why attone for breaking laws that are impossible to follow.

We can not attone for them. God offers attonement because they are impossiable to follow.

Uh yeah, you didn't get the point. Why atone if they are impossible to follow? Why apologize for breaking rules that are designed to be impossible not to break? If breathing was illegal and you were threatened with the death penalty unless you regularly repented for breathing, would that not be insane? And all because someone in power decided breathing was wrong (when other people did it, anyway) while refusig to give a justification for his rule. "Because god said so" only carries weight if you can demonstrate that anyything god says is instantly infalliable (not just you think this is true, but proof that it is) and that the bible was written (directly or indirectly) by god (regardless of whether or not he exists, though if he doesn't it is automatically known that he didn't write/inspire it).

[Brian37]

God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God’s laws denouncing them as immoral. This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God’s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God’s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God’s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God’s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God’s law.

If believers believe in God’s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God’s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

You act like rejecting claims of fictional beings is a bad thing? Tell me, do you follow Allah's laws? Or Yahewh's laws? How about the laws the Anceint Egyptians claimed Ra mandated on them?

Your asking or telling us we need God's laws is like trying to convince us we need to follow the Laws of Luke Skywalker or Mickey Mouse.

And "punishment". In the bible and all the three holy books is hardly moral. Punishment in those books is revenge for dissent.

Punishment in secular law is not torture, but containment. When we put people in our prisons we dont beat the shit out of them on a daily basis and if our prisioners get physically abused by staff, that staff can be held accountable. Like if a male prison guard rapes a female inmate.

The gods of Abraham simple are dictators "Obey me or else". That is not law by consensus, that is law by appeal to authority. If you want to see what god/s look like in human form Kim Jong Un and the Communist party of China also have absolutely the final say and dont need your permission to rule over you.

But since gods don't exist it stands to reason that humans are not gods eiether, and even Kim Jong Un will die someday.

In secular society WE decide who our rulers are and WE can hold them to account when they do things we dont like, the same cannot be said for the "office of God", anymore than a North Korean has any chance of booting their abuser Kim Jong Un out of his office.

Kim Jong Un, like the Gods of Abraham does not need your permission to rule overy and will get revenge in the form of punishment and not just containment, but torture to use you as an example to others to stay in line.

"Law without punishment is impotant". And who says we don't have that? If you speed, you get a traffic ticket. If you murder someone you go to jail. Those things do exist right now.

Now if you want to claim that Christianity automatically makes you moreal, would you care to guys of the 2 million prisioners in our prison system, what they would claim their rleigion is? I can tell you it aint Buddhists or Jews or atheists, there might be a few, but the majority are Christian.

Take Japan, they have prisons too, but far fewer and much less of a need for them because there is vertually no crime rate compaired to our "Christian naitoin". Now why is ist that godless country seems to have less problems than we do?


Labels don't automatically make a human good or bad, only actions do. Otherwise there would be no need for purgury laws because bibles magically make people tell the truth.

Now Great As I Am, you lurk and post at several websites, in hopes that there will be a hugh chunk of gullible atheists as if this was our first rodeo. You are going to have to do much better than the standard 101 talking points of using threats and bribes you have here.

"Satan", which one? The Muslim one or the Christian one or the Catholic one or the Baptist one or the Sunni one?

Sorry, but using a book to prove a book by merely quoting it for self serving circular reasoning does not impress us. Nor does not believing in a god make us evil or constitute Allah or Yahweeh or Vishnu existing becaaus you are personaly frightended by our existance.

[Creed of Heresy]

Satan shall deceive the world and turn us from god's word.

Sounds more like a convenient use of the old "play on peoples' fear" hook than a genuine warning, especially given how vague and generalized it is. Anyone with half a brain and a decent measure of common sense would, or SHOULD, see it as being nothing more.

[The Grand Nudger]

Indeed, in a book driven by and consisting almost entirely of hilariously magical shit..claiming an ultimate authority...the cautionary "but you need to watch out..because there are deceivers out there" becomes the ultimate unintentional one-liner.

[Creed of Heresy]

Indeed, in a book driven by and consisting almost entirely of hilariously magical shit..claiming an ultimate authority...the cautionary "but you need to watch out..because there are deceivers out there" becomes the ultimate unintentional one-liner.

The proverbial punch line, if you will.

[Drich]

In what way do you think this is different from your last non-explanation?

Just laying the foundation for what is to come.

Judging by the above I don't think that you do....and if we're going to go on any journeys you are going to have to at least take a single step....yes.

Allow me to clarify. In order for you to understand a more indepth answer you will have to acknoweledge the authority of God. If you have trouble with that "God said so" usally fishes it out. So point blank do you have any problem accepting the authority of God? If yes the the conversation is at an end. If not we may proceed with the next step of the explaination.

I already did. Do you have a serious answer?

Actually I do, are you prepared to take it 'seriously?'

I don't think you understand Drich. It's a price I'm unwilling to pay.

..and I know you do not understand. It is not up to you to pay the price God set on sin. Nothing you have can attone for your sin. The price was paid by God himself. The second part you miss out on is the The Point of setting the price so high in the first place was to put people like you off to the idea of God demanding that this price is to be paid in the first place.

I will not reach into my pocket and pull out a handful of someone elses blood to excuse my own inequities..whatever they may be. I don't care how pretty the gardens on the other side of the gate are..I refuse to pay the price that the gatekeeper is said to demand.

Again, which is probably one of the reasons the price was set that high. To filter out the people who would not pay it.

That's precisely the problem....this price does lead me to an opinion of what you want this diety to be..of what this diety is said to be. It's horrid on the face of it...but if it's not even possible to explain how it works it becomes even more disgusting. A shell game where the cards are replaced with corpses.

Again if we have been given the ablity to freely choose, then ultimatly someone will not want to choose God. That fact that you were able to form a disagreeable opinion of God based on the requirements of Faith tell me that is one of very reasons for the requirements set by Him.
So that you may filter yourself out of the fellowship He has planned for everyone else. In turn It been my experience (*per Festive1's advice) that we have been given things (moral issues) like this so we know in our hearts without reservation or doubt, that our final judgement is just and accurate. That before we are judged we know our eternal fate. It is a kindness to know why you have been sent to eternal seperation after getting to know ever so briefly the Love of God. The only thing worse than going to Hell is not knowing why you are their. IF This is your fate, you will know why you will spend eternity seperated from God.

And someone somewhere may just have the most compelling reasons imaginable for that disagreement. That doesn't leave god in any position of authority Drich.

The problem with our current understanding of judgement is that arguements have to be weighed and reasoned out to seek truth. God does not need reasons or evidence or anything else. Judgement is swift and accurate. Their is only truth, and not interpertation of evidence. Heb 4:12 For the word of God (Another name for Jesus) is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Everything eh? I don't think you'll let him do that...nor do I think he is ever said to make the claim that he's willing to do that himself.

Hell is the absence of the Glory of God. Hell is a void or pit. It is the oppsite of creation. So yes, God will ensure that you will be place apart from Him/His Glory and the rest of creation. This promise has been made many times through out scripture. God Will Not drag anyone into Heaven Kicking and screaming. If you want to be seperated from God, then He has an 'app' for that.

My questions and comments require nothing.

If you ask What color my car is? i am bound by the parameters of your question to answer Red. Like wise if you ask of a specific value or a given nature of God, I am also bound to tell you what I know of your question. If you do not like the answer then ask a different question.

---

yeah, you didn't get the point. Why atone if they are impossible to follow?

Um, yeah.. God said so.

Why apologize for breaking rules that are designed to be impossible not to break? If breathing was illegal and you were threatened with the death penalty unless you regularly repented for breathing, would that not be insane? And all because someone in power decided breathing was wrong (when other people did it, anyway) while refusig to give a justification for his rule. "Because god said so" only carries weight if you can demonstrate that anyything god says is instantly infalliable (not just you think this is true, but proof that it is) and that the bible was written (directly or indirectly) by god (regardless of whether or not he exists, though if he doesn't it is automatically known that he didn't write/inspire it).

This sounds like a viable judgement day defense strageity. Let me know how it works out for you.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just laying the foundation for what is to come.

Stop pulling on it then and get to the moneyshot.

Allow me to clarify. In order for you to understand a more indepth answer you will have to acknoweledge the authority of God. If you have trouble with that "God said so" usally fishes it out. So point blank do you have any problem accepting the authority of God? If yes the the conversation is at an end. If not we may proceed with the next step of the explaination.

I don't have to acknowledge the authority of the government of any other country to understand their explanations for their laws. So that's a categorical dodge. Are you telling me that so long as I think "god says so" is a shitty excuse for not having an answer you are incapable of proceeding in this conversation? Is that supposed to make me feel like you actually have an explanation of how a blood sacrifice atones for anything..or is it supposed to assure me that you don't?

Actually I do, are you prepared to take it 'seriously?'

Like i said above, stop playing with it. Point it at the camera and let'er rip.

..and I know you do not understand. It is not up to you to pay the price God set on sin. Nothing you have can attone for your sin. The price was paid by God himself. The second part you miss out on is the The Point of setting the price so high in the first place was to put people like you off to the idea of God demanding that this price is to be paid in the first place.

It absolutely is up to me. Sure, the narrative says that I've been handed a token that I didn't create or earn myself..but ultimately I have to give the token to the man at the lever before he lets me on the ride. I don't even want this token in my pocket, let alone be a willing accomplice to all that has gone into it's manufacture by accepting and perpetuating it's validity. If the point of this narrative was to turn people like me off, then bravo, it's clearly done so. But what kind of person wouldn't be turned off by this? Who exactly are we filling heaven with again?

Again, which is probably one of the reasons the price was set that high. To filter out the people who would not pay it.

A useful filter, even for me, because I wouldn't want to spend much time with people who were willing to pay it, nor would I want to spend any time with the being that instituted such a system of barter. I'm going to repeat this for you. This is sick, it is disgusting, and it does not help to establish that authority you mentioned above.

Again if we have been given the ablity to freely choose, then ultimatly someone will not want to choose God. That fact that you were able to form a disagreeable opinion of God based on the requirements of Faith tell me that is one of very reasons for the requirements set by Him.

You wouldn't make the same decision if a person here, in this world, offered a similar deal? Am I to hold your god to a lower standard than I hold it's supposed creations?

So that you may filter yourself out of the fellowship He has planned for everyone else. In turn It been my experience (*per Festive1's advice) that we have been given things (moral issues) like this so we know in our hearts without reservation or doubt, that our final judgement is just and accurate.

What about blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption is supposed to leave me with the impression that your god is qualified to weigh in on what is just or accurate? It has the opposite effect on me Drich.

That before we are judged we know our eternal fate. It is a kindness to know why you have been sent to eternal seperation after getting to know ever so briefly the Love of God. The only thing worse than going to Hell is not knowing why you are their. IF This is your fate, you will know why you will spend eternity seperated from God.

This love doesn't sound much like love. If I wake up one morning and find myself in hell I'll only know that I was sent their by a scapegoating deity...I still won't know why. But ultimately that's irrelevant as to the "how" of atonement via blood sacrifice...vicarious redemption.

The problem with our current understanding of judgement is that arguements have to be weighed and reasoned out to seek truth. God does not need reasons or evidence or anything else. Judgement is swift and accurate. Their is only truth, and not interpertation of evidence. Heb 4:12 For the word of God (Another name for Jesus) is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

I see, so I -am- supposed to hold you god to a lower standard. Well, unfortunately, I refuse. Judgement may be swift, but in absence of reason, evidence or arguments I fail to see how it could be called accurate, and it certainly cannot be called just. This, again, is irrelevant to "how" blood sacrifice and vicarious redemption atones for anything. What's this about giving an account anyway? An account of what? I thought evidence and reason was out from the word go? This doesn't seem to have been thought through very well..... Are you telling me that even though this "account"...whatever that is, doesn't factor in...god requires no evidence..no reason...we have to give it anyway? Why, because he like to listen as much as he likes to watch? The sinner stands before him already condemned to hell - for no reason, with no evidence...but god says "dance puppet"?

Hell is the absence of the Glory of God. Hell is a void or pit. It is the oppsite of creation. So yes, God will ensure that you will be place apart from Him/His Glory and the rest of creation. This promise has been made many times through out scripture. God Will Not drag anyone into Heaven Kicking and screaming. If you want to be seperated from God, then He has an 'app' for that.

Suppose I don't want anything to do with his app? You said I could be separated from all that he has created.......god at least put boundaries around that void or pit in his creation of all other things...and I'd like to be separated from those as well. Hows he going to keep me stuck in this place he created by exclusion while keeping the promise that you've made to me -in his stead-, and why should I trust the promises you make for another to be carried out to begin with? Is this god beholden to you as his self appointed messenger to uphold any old thing you may say in passing to a person such as myself? I hardly think so.

If you ask What color my car is? i am bound by the parameters of your question to answer Red. Like wise if you ask of a specific value or a given nature of God, I am also bound to tell you what I know of your question. If you do not like the answer then ask a different question.

Or, you could decide not to answer the question...which is, amusingly, exactly what you have done thusfar. You've done a fantastic job of making me dislike the god that you have created even more, but you haven't even begun to answer the question I asked...in fact, you explicitly stated at the very beginning that you weren't going to answer the question...and then proceeded to deliver what I can sum up no more sympathetically than a steaming pile of malevolent shit as a sort of consolation prize. Wht bothers me is not that a god operates this way..because it doesn't. What bothers me is that this is how -you- wish for a god to operate. This, to you, is the highest example of righteousness. "Bothers" isn't even the word. It curdles my stomach, and the thought that other people might share such an opinion..in it's excruciatingly horrid details, reduces my opinion of our entire species.

But then...I remember that it's just you Drich. These are your wishes. Your ideals. Your fantasies. Your inability to answer a question. Suddenly I feel much better. Now, you could explain the whole atonement bit to me if you wanted to, and it won't actually make me a christian. I'll still be unwilling to exchange that token, but at least you'll have explained something Drich, and that would be very refreshing to me. At least then, even though I don't agree...it can actually work. It's not a product I would buy, but it can do what it says it does on the label. That's a hell of a step up, and I fail to see why you wouldn't want to be the bearer of that explanation, why you'd rather evade that explanation....why you'd rather make excuses for that evasion. Would it be too bold of me to suggest a simple explanation for all of this? An explanation that I would have appreciated and commended you for offering. You don't actually know how it's supposed to work (let alone whether or not it does), do you?

[Brian37]

Just laying the foundation for what is to come.

7 billion people and all the different varieties of the peddlers of the doomsday prophacies want to take everyone out with them even if they don't buy into this bullshit.

Really? Is that what your fictional daddy wants? Stick knives in our hands, call it a warning, let us stab each other to death, and the last group standing on the goard and bloody bodies of the loosers gets to hang out with daddy?

That does not sound like a loving god, it sounds like an abusive selfish self centered narcissist.

Now since gods do not exist, I am criticising yoru claim as if I was reviewing a movie character or book character. It would be a laughable Jerry Springer episode if people of all the major Abrahamic religions didn't belieive in their bloodthirsty cartoon character as being real.

As George Carlin said " But he loves you".

[The Grand Nudger]

As a side note...if our conversation about atonement is over as you have suggested that it was...

Has it ever occurred to you that the responses you've given me (and the responses you've given others) to questions like these have the effect of reducing your faith to a naked appeal to the avoidance of hell?

Ultimately, all that is happening in your narrative is that we (lowly sinners that we are) are filing into his courtroom..where his verdict has been waiting for us, and again, has been made for no reason, with no evidence (he will certainly offer no arguments in his favor). Then, perhaps unceremoniously, we are filed away in the"heaven" drawer or "hell" drawer like so many manilla envelopes. Morality, goodness, all of these things utterly meaningless, how could they be anything but if this is the process the winnows us? This is pointless, it's a sham. -Even if we entertain the notion that it actually occurs-