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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 1:25 pm
@ GreatestIam.
I consider every set of laws and moral code given by a movement, ideology or deity which claims absolute supiriority and unquestionable correctness to be false.
Moral standerds are something I consider to be a evolving learning process. Sociaty learns out of earlyer laws and perceptions of sociaty how to regulate today.
To me there is no such thing as an absolute standert set of values - only values earned through learning out of mistakes. And therfore every Movement...etc which claims to have a totalitarian, unchabgeable, always perfect set of moral values are to be rejected.
Example - rape - I just read today how in a marrige a husband could rape his wife and get away with it up to 1963 in Germany. Because it was seen as "private buisness" and a wifes "obligation" to have "sex" with her husband. The set of values which kept this lawless state in existance were not overturned by "revalation" but through human reasoning.
And on the other hand, the set of values which kept this state in place, claimed total moral supiriority and a rejection of the evaluation of those standerds moral correctnes.
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm
(November 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Then, it is a worthless law. It is designed specifically to make criminals out of everyone. If God makes rules which he, himself, admits are impossible for men to hold to, what does that say about him? It depends on whether or not He provides the crimminals a way to attone for their crimes.
Quote:It says that we are only 'sinners' because God made sure just about every single behavior he programmed into us is a 'sin', with the added fun of making it so that no amount of good behavior, itself, is ever satisfactory to make up for it. Why? So he could extort us with 'forgiveness' (at the risk of eternal torture and punishment, naturally). There you go, ladies and gents, God's 'love' is emotional blackmail.
Was it this thread or the other one where I said if you are one of those people who demand that God simply love you for who you are then God is not for you.
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 1:32 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2012 at 1:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm)Drich Wrote: It depends on whether or not He provides the crimminals a way to attone for their crimes. Which is a muddy little pool for me. Explain how this god of yours actually -does- provide such a thing again?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 1:34 pm
(November 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm)Drich Wrote: (November 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Then, it is a worthless law. It is designed specifically to make criminals out of everyone. If God makes rules which he, himself, admits are impossible for men to hold to, what does that say about him? It depends on whether or not He provides the crimminals a way to attone for their crimes.
Why attone for breaking laws that are impossible to follow.
Drich Wrote:Was it this thread or the other one where I said if you are one of those people who demand that God simply love you for who you are he made you then God is not for you.
Fixed.
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 2:59 pm
(November 15, 2012 at 12:29 pm)Drich Wrote:
[/quote]
You know what I liked in this post of yours?
The distinction between god's righteousness and man's morality.
God's righteousness appears as something that is only his and has nothing to do with morality. He does what he wants... at least, that's how I read it... then you come and say it's all objective morality and I become saddened.... 
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 3:40 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2012 at 3:54 pm by Drich.)
(November 15, 2012 at 1:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (November 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm)Drich Wrote: It depends on whether or not He provides the crimminals a way to attone for their crimes. Which is a muddy little pool for me. Explain how this god of yours actually -does- provide such a thing again?
Through the Blood Sacerfice of Jesus paid on the Cross.
(November 15, 2012 at 1:34 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Why attone for breaking laws that are impossible to follow. We can not attone for them. God offers attonement because they are impossiable to follow.
Quote:Drich Wrote:Was it this thread or the other one where I said if you are one of those people who demand that God simply love you for who you are he made you then God is not for you.
Fixed. He has made some to refuse Him. (The reminant/Jews) The rest have been given the oppertunity to accept or refuse based on what they 'feel' is right.
(November 15, 2012 at 2:59 pm)pocaracas Wrote: You know what I liked in this post of yours?
The distinction between god's righteousness and man's morality.
God's righteousness appears as something that is only his and has nothing to do with moralityHe does what he wants... at least, that's how I read it... You read correctly.
Quote:then you come and say it's all objective morality and I become saddened....
Look beyond your comfort zone and you will find 'morality' to be defined by culture, region, generation, social, religious, and eccomonic reasons. This makes 'morality' a constant variable one that can not be standardized or agreed upon. Therfore it can not be defination be an actual standard. It is simply the standard in which a given generation in an given region finds it an acceptable way to live.
The reason why God's righteousness will never be found 100% moral is because God's standard does not change while morality can literally change from person to person with in a soceity.
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 3:55 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2012 at 4:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 15, 2012 at 3:40 pm)Drich Wrote: Through the Blood Sacerfice of Jesus paid on the Cross. How is that supposed to atone for anything Drich? Do you understand my question? Because this didn't even approach an answer.
(I'm going to be upfront about this....so you can gauge whether or not you actually want to have this discussion. This, for me, is the single sickest claim in all of christian experience. If there were a god, and this were true...I could not worship that god..and I would be completely committed to subverting everything that it willed or wanted to the very last ounce of all breath in my body. I feel very, very strongly about this. So please....try not to offer up a platitude. Explain something, just this once, because it is very likely your only avenue for influencing my opinion of christianity. This is your missionary moment...and I am deeply, deeply interested in your explanation....no pressure.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 4:07 pm
(November 15, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Drich Wrote: I have been 'preaching' objective morality since the beginning. I guess if I keep repeating something long enough some of it finally gets through.
It will only wear through your tougue.
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Yeah, I don't know about that either, 2k years worth of preaching the same tired shit and it aint exactly sticking around here anymore.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God’s law versus secular law. Which is moral?
November 15, 2012 at 4:12 pm
(November 15, 2012 at 3:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: How is that supposed to atone for anything Drich? Because God said so.
Quote:Do you understand my question? Because this didn't even approach an answer.
I do, and be patient, every journey begins with the first step.
Quote:(I'm going to be upfront about this....so you can gauge whether or not you actually want to have this discussion.
If you have a serious question then ask.
Quote: This, for me, is the single sickest claim in all of christian experience. If there were a god, and this were true...I could not worship that god..and I would be completely committed to subverting everything that it willed or wanted to the very last ounce of all breath in my body. I feel very, very strongly about this.
Maybe this is why God requires such a steep price for sin. So that 'we' can have a very good understanding of what type of deity he is. If he has indeed given a will apart from his own then someone somewhere will not agree or like Him or what He does.
Again maybe things like the need for a blood sacerfice (and the fact that He provided it for you on your behalf) are to help seperate the sheep from the goats. Not everyone wants to be with God, and if you can figure out that you do not want, or if you feel that their should not be a need for this sort of thing then turn towards eternity in full confidence that God will not Make you serve Him. that He will keep you seperated from him and everything you believe to be unjust about Him.
Quote: So please....try not to offer up a platitude.
I can offer only what your question or comment requires me to offer. You will ultimatly judge it worthy or dismiss it.
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