Jesus, Least Fit Moral Judge

[Drich]

If it was mere separation from God, that would be one thing. It's the whole 'eternity of torture' thing that makes it a loaded gun.

If you loved someone with all of you being, and knew they loved you back with an even greater love and you got to sample that love, but were ripped apart by something you did or something you spent your life doing, and had to be eternally seperated from that person, The Seperation in of itself becomes the eternity of torture.

Fire does not make Hell Hell. or Rather Hell Fire is not of flame. Hell Fire is panic or the emotional distress that one experiences when they are consumed (as if being set on fire.) By the nothingness of seperation or the void of creation.

Seperation IS the punishment.
(Flame has nothing on Hell fire)

How can people get to heaven through Jesus if they don't know anything about him?

How can one get into the club except through the door man? Does that mean you have to know the door man to get in? No. (But it helps, and not all who know the door man can get in.) The door man or Rather Christ Himself judges who is worthy to get in to see the Father.

In other words: "No Man enters Heaven Except through Christ."

If you are right about everything, I intend to find out. If I suffer for eternity based on my antitheism, my antitheism would only be completely justified in the end.

I can only speak of what I know. The bible only says Hell is forever, it does not say 'we' will be.
For what it is worth it was my 'experience' that Hell is a complete seperation from God and Creation. Our sanity is a gift from God making it apart of creation. When the gates of Heaven closed so ended the control I had over my mind. I don't know if this was worse or better, as what made me, me was consumed by Hell fire and the though of spending an eternity in it. leaving a primal, animal like bag of fear.

What I intend to do is show why your God is unworthy of devotion and worship. If your God is unfair, he is unfair on purpose. So fuck him.

And what I was trying to show you was the 'unfair' way you judged what was fair. You slam God and call him unjust for makeing judgement calls according to his will or His Character, and yet you have done the very same thing when you judge the way He works by your own standard. What makes your standard of 'morality' more valid than His?

Why do you a member of creation get to judge God, when supposedly the creator of everything can not judge you in the same way you've judged Him?

To 'atone' implies that I feel that I am in the wrong for being a sinner.

No it doesn't. You can not attone for sin. Your sin has been attoned for by God Himself. All there is left to do is accept this attonement.

And you cannot make a convincing argument why I should feel this way.

You are confusing religious christianity from what the bible actually tells us.

Why does religion to do A (attone for sin) when the Bible says B? (Your attonement was provided by Christ) Their is no money or power in selling B.

Understand I am not selling you A, I am tring to point to what has already been done in B.

It is God's choice, apparently.

You made a huge leap how did you get to predestination from the offer of attonemnt Christ offers? Or are you trying to coast in on an old standby arguement hoping that it will work in what is being discussed here?

I'm interpreting your statement as an example of predestination. If I'm incorrect, then you need to phrase yourself better.

I am asking how can you come to the conclusion of predestination when you make the choice.

That doesn't answer why anyone should.

Because no one should unless they want to. They would want to goto God because He offers the love we were ment to receive.

Is it really a choice? I can choose to ignore what the facts indicate, as you already do, but I can't force myself to believe a God which is not there, nor could I choose to devote myself entirely to a God whose behavior and rules are completely disgusting to me. When I was a believer, it was not my choice then, either, and my transition from believer to non-believer was not a mere change of mind.

Believe me, I am not an antitheist because I thought "hey, this is what I want to be". I am an atheist because no other option is compatible with reality.

We've had this discussion before. When I identified the fact that you have a narrow defination of Reality. (What you can see feel, taste, touch for yourself, or you believe in a reality that someone who you think is smarter than you believes in.) IF the boundries of 'realality' were so narrow, we would have mastered all of it by now. Nothing would have ever changed since our first understandings of it.

In truth you believe what you do not because it suits the way you want to live life. It shows in how you argue against what you believe to be Christianity.

[Brian37]

If it was mere separation from God, that would be one thing. It's the whole 'eternity of torture' thing that makes it a loaded gun.

If you loved someone with all of you being, and knew they loved you back with an even greater love and you got to sample that love, but were ripped apart by something you did or something you spent your life doing, and had to be eternally seperated from that person, The Seperation in of itself becomes the eternity of torture.

Fire does not make Hell Hell. or Rather Hell Fire is not of flame. Hell Fire is panic or the emotional distress that one experiences when they are consumed (as if being set on fire.) By the nothingness of seperation or the void of creation.

Seperation IS the punishment.
(Flame has nothing on Hell fire)

How can people get to heaven through Jesus if they don't know anything about him?

How can one get into the club except through the door man? Does that mean you have to know the door man to get in? No. (But it helps, and not all who know the door man can get in.) The door man or Rather Christ Himself judges who is worthy to get in to see the Father.

In other words: "No Man enters Heaven Except through Christ."

If you are right about everything, I intend to find out. If I suffer for eternity based on my antitheism, my antitheism would only be completely justified in the end.

I can only speak of what I know. The bible only says Hell is forever, it does not say 'we' will be.
For what it is worth it was my 'experience' that Hell is a complete seperation from God and Creation. Our sanity is a gift from God making it apart of creation. When the gates of Heaven closed so ended the control I had over my mind. I don't know if this was worse or better, as what made me, me was consumed by Hell fire and the though of spending an eternity in it. leaving a primal, animal like bag of fear.

What I intend to do is show why your God is unworthy of devotion and worship. If your God is unfair, he is unfair on purpose. So fuck him.

And what I was trying to show you was the 'unfair' way you judged what was fair. You slam God and call him unjust for makeing judgement calls according to his will or His Character, and yet you have done the very same thing when you judge the way He works by your own standard. What makes your standard of 'morality' more valid than His?

Why do you a member of creation get to judge God, when supposedly the creator of everything can not judge you in the same way you've judged Him?

To 'atone' implies that I feel that I am in the wrong for being a sinner.

No it doesn't. You can not attone for sin. Your sin has been attoned for by God Himself. All there is left to do is accept this attonement.

And you cannot make a convincing argument why I should feel this way.

You are confusing religious christianity from what the bible actually tells us.

Why does religion to do A (attone for sin) when the Bible says B? (Your attonement was provided by Christ) Their is no money or power in selling B.

Understand I am not selling you A, I am tring to point to what has already been done in B.

It is God's choice, apparently.

You made a huge leap how did you get to predestination from the offer of attonemnt Christ offers? Or are you trying to coast in on an old standby arguement hoping that it will work in what is being discussed here?

I'm interpreting your statement as an example of predestination. If I'm incorrect, then you need to phrase yourself better.

I am asking how can you come to the conclusion of predestination when you make the choice.

That doesn't answer why anyone should.

Because no one should unless they want to. They would want to goto God because He offers the love we were ment to receive.

Is it really a choice? I can choose to ignore what the facts indicate, as you already do, but I can't force myself to believe a God which is not there, nor could I choose to devote myself entirely to a God whose behavior and rules are completely disgusting to me. When I was a believer, it was not my choice then, either, and my transition from believer to non-believer was not a mere change of mind.

Believe me, I am not an antitheist because I thought "hey, this is what I want to be". I am an atheist because no other option is compatible with reality.

We've had this discussion before. When I identified the fact that you have a narrow defination of Reality. (What you can see feel, taste, touch for yourself, or you believe in a reality that someone who you think is smarter than you believes in.) IF the boundries of 'realality' were so narrow, we would have mastered all of it by now. Nothing would have ever changed since our first understandings of it.

In truth you believe what you do not because it suits the way you want to live life. It shows in how you argue against what you believe to be Christianity.

No, what it shows is that you prefer in clinging to something you know is absurd because it sounds good to you. "Faith is believing in things you know ain't so" Mark Twain.

Do you REALLY believe that there is a brain with no brain, no location, no material, no neurons that has magical super powers? I don't think you do. I simply think you want to believe it so badly you will look for excuses to cling to the absurd.

[Drich]

If god is the arbiter of morality as you claim, then by default he HAS to be fair, completely.

God has nothing to do with 'Morality.' As we have already discussed several times in this thread, Morality is a Personal sense of Righteousness.It is far and apart from God' Perfect standard of Righteousness. It is a standard that one lives by that allows for grading and marginalization of sin, allowing the Self righteous to live however he or she see fitnd can still feel "right about it."

God's perfect righteousness is anything but fair to the moral judgements of man. Lest you think that it is 'fair' for one to tell a single white lie his whole life, deserve the same Hell as a Hitler.

The fact that life isn't fair, shows me that god is not fair and thus gives me yet another reason to discount him as existing.Because, if he truly existed, then existence would not exist as it does. And why live in boundaries if you don't have to and there's no proof that you should?

Show me Book Chapter and verse from the bible where God promised to make everything fair. If you can not, know all you have done is marginalized and dismissed a straw man god of your own creation. The God of the Bible remains, even if you can dismiss your personal version of Him.

Regular people, living regular lives, finding it incredulous that they were born with a gun to their heads with regards to their "choices" about life after death, should they choose to believe in an after life or not, they're going to hell for something they didn't even do unless they acknowledge that they were created by a being who wants subservience in exchange for an eternal life without torture? No, there aren't any sheltered people, anywhere. More, just people like you--trying to bully someone else into submitting defeat in a debate, by equating them with a hypothetical population of people that you made up. In all actuality, the suppressors in this life, are folks like you. People who believe that they have the right to dictate how others live, and are willing to fear monger said people into complying with the stipulation of eternal death from an all powerful being who they have absolutely no proof whatsoever that such a being exists in the first place--in order to get what they want in life via control of others. All over a silly, man written book no less.

What if a Muslim came to you and said, "you need to pray on your knees to Mohammad or you're going to die an eternal death spiritually?

I would research his claim and when I found it to be wanting. Then I would thank him for his time and dismiss his claim. (this is what actually happen no what if needed.)

You'd tell him to F off wouldn't you? That's you, to me. It's actually more logical to believe that there isn't anywhere after death, for the mere fact that religion uses it to get what it wants from people, in life. Charlatan comes to mind, when I think about any person on earth who tells me that if I don't do what they want or live like they want me to, then I will be thrown into an alleged sadistic eternal lake of fire. Before you go spouting off that I indeed dictate what others do myself in terms of not wanting others to murder or rape--consider this. You were put on this earth, so was I. We are equals. If you kill me or rape me, then you are treading upon my rights as a human being and I must dictate that you can't do that, in order to protect my own existence.

WOW, so before you go any further let me get this straight. It is ok to murder if you deem it ok?

You on the other hand, telling me that eternal fire waits for your equals for non-violent acts such as loving a man as a man--is just you plain out again, taking away our civil liberties as a living, breathing, free-willed human being and is equally as wrong.

Show me where I have said this.

Either way, you're wronging others with your beliefs if you implement those beliefs into your actions, or push your beliefs upon others as you're trying to do here.

I am answering your question. If you simply stop responding or stop asking questions I will have nothing more to say. Which kinda flies in the face of your claim that I am pushing anything. This is made evident through those members who started this conversation 10 pages ago and have since dropped off, without a peep from me. Show me one place where I "Pushed my beliefs" where they were not solicited. Otherwise admit your misrepersentation of my efforts here.

God is omnipotent, thus he knows what our choices will be before we make them. That means our fates are pre-determined, and hence he still allows 2/3 of mankind to perish rather than just opting not to create us. Is it not better to be non-existant, then spend an eternity in HELL? I think so, despite what Catholics have concluded on the matter.

Two things,
How do you know 2/3 will perish?

Also if you know how a movie was going to end does it mean you wrote it? Or does it simply mean you know how a movie is going to end?

If God simply know what will happen, does not mean He forced it to happen that way. The doctrine of predestination says just that. (that God wrote the movie.)

Popular vote, is not morality. Again, if you kill me you're wronging me--no matter what part of the earth or what kind of governing powers oversee you, it's still wrong.

But you just said it was ok to murder someone if one met some collectivlly agree upon, pre appoved requirements. (which don't look now meets the criteria to be called popular morality)

Everyone knows it, even the middle easterners and those from the 'far east'. Government is supposed to protect ones' rights as a human being, idealistically. The fact that it doesn't do that in parts of the world is not an argument that morality is a sliding scale based on where you live. It merely reflects the fact that people like to tell others how to live--and parallels your beliefs quite nicely, actually. If you were in a public office, I guarantee you would definitely suppress ones' right to marry another of the same sex. Despite the fact that you and I and everyone on this earth have a right to do whatever they goddamn please so long as it doesn't hurt others or encroach upon their rights. It's only when those rights are violated, that justification can be found in law that tells people how to live. We have rights, yes we do. Rights given to us by existence alone. God isn't here, or anywhere that I can see--to enforce the bibles' convictions. You're the enforcer, and it's frightening to me that you can't live without encroaching on others.

Because of your alignment with soceitialy sanctioned murder, it kinda invalidates the self righteousness this whole arguement is based on. Do you want to reset and try again?

Bull fuckin shit. I have better standards than you, without a bible to tell me what's right from wrong.

If my righteousness is not based off of works then of course you do, that's kinda the point.

Did you seriously just quote wikipedia???? bah ha ha ha haaaaaaa
ha ha

When in Rome...

I can't imagine anyone not considering it worthwhile to kill a killer to prevent them from killing. AGAIN, if they are encroaching on others' human rights, they need to be stopped to protect those rights, which are rightly not theirs to infringe upon. We have every right to defend your own rights. End of story.

Two things again, Just want to point out your confirmation of pop culture sanctioned murder, and two I would not kill any of those babies, even if I knew who they were. Without getting too sci-fi/time travel movie nerd on you I will say everything happens for a reason, and that the present is the product of the past. Just because one changes the past it does not mean he will have a better future. Prevent these conflicts could be the end of humanity.

Again that is because I do not have the ablity to see how stopping WWII and the cold war from happening would effect Humanity as a whole. God on the other hand has this ablity, as such I believe Him to be obligated to effect change and to kill a person or an entire people IF it were to negitivly effect the course for the Plan of Human History. Say for instance A given people would eventually over throw and destroy the people who were meant to foster the Messiah, and subsequently eternal savlation for all humanity. For this reason I could see why a few babies needed to be smashed against the rocks. If indeed those babies would grow to be a race of hitlers, dooming all of Humanity to Hell.

I think you need to put yourself in others' shoes for a minute, friend. If a Chinese army came over and took over your hometown to overthrow the government and accidentally killed your entire family in the crossfire--you'd consider it an encroachment on your human rights.

Actually that is why my Grandfather left Korea and all his family's holdings in the earily 1950s. It wasn't a matter of 'human right' or any sort of entitlement nonsense. He lost family and did not want to loose more so he gather what he had and left, never to return. leaving hundreds of years of title and land to the state, to come here and work as slave. Why? Because He saw and recognized the rights of the two goverments to wage war on one another, and their rights to call up into service the people who live there to fight and die for said country.
I do not disagree with what he did.

Even if your town has weapons of mass destruction sitting in an underground bunker aimed at the Chinese capitol. Why is it not considered the same thing if your government does the same thing to another people? It's still murder, it's still wrong.

except when you say it isn't...

Exclude god (whom most here don't believe in anyways and thus your arguments have no basis for discussion )

Your just a typing contradiction aren't you? If this were true, what was the purpose for this mess:

from an argument for once, and see where your logic takes you. Talk like a human being, not some bible-warrior which we all know, you are not. If you want to relate to what keeps us "godforsaken", then try reasoning like a reasonable human being, with your arguments and THEN state what god feels about the matter.
I guarantee you support war efforts on the part of the US government because God says that your government has the authority---again, exactly how genocides happen. It can, has, and will happen and you will be the one condoning it. Your "morality" is actually the very thing that drives the worlds' greatest tragedies and carnage. In the end if religion wasn't the driving force for one population to war with another another: there'd be a hell of alot less dying.

I truly feel like I'm beating a dead horse with this one. Which is it? "When have I ever said under the new covenant," or, "it is a blanket statement that is true in either covenant." Disregarding covenants, murder is murder is murder. If god tells you to do it, you're just delusional.

Ok sport, let me break it down even further for you. The Biblical Defination of Murder is: The unsanctioned taking of life. This defination holds true in either convenant. For God sanctions the taking of life through the goverments we live under. (Again both true in either covenants. )OT Israel was a theocracy, and with in said goverment thier were prophets who divined God's will, which went to the king which He ordered whatever God wanted him to do. Now in the NT we have scripture that hands over life and death to the govermental powers that be. Sanctioning the Goverments of man to 'make the call' as to who lives and who dies. again the taking of Human life in of itself is not considered murder in the bible. It is when one takes a life outside of the sanctioned avenues God established, that killing a person becomes murder.. One more time only because you think god is comming to people one at a time. God Sanctions the death of people through the Goverments He has placed in power. So if a goverment empowers it's people the right to defend themselves and a person kills anothe in self defence it is not murder. God sanctioned the death of that person through the acts of the goverment He has placed in power.


Oh, and also I would like to point out the hyprocrisy of your initial statement on your ablity to 'morally justifying murder' if/when it meet the popular requirements you agreed with, and your statement here where you said murder is never ok. Rather 'murder is murder.'

Yet another hypothetical, if I said to you: Barny is the one and only god. Barny says it's ok for me to kill you because you smell, so, die---any sane human being would think that's psychotic. Which is exactly how I see you, for upholding the thought that murder is anything but immoral, ever.

You are closed minded. You have this view because you did not take the time to fully understand my view. You just assumed that your view of my view was accurate. Open minded people tend to gather as much information as possiable before commiting themselves to foolish statements/misrepersentations like the one you just did.


Drich wrote:
[so.. If God does not decide what murder is, then who does? You? If you decide then may I ask when is it ok to kill? What if I broke into your home and raped you family? What if this was a weekly event? in your 'judgement' would i deserve to die? If so then what makes your judgement any more valid than God's?]

Wow where to start, here? First of all I have a question--why throw in that it's a weekly event?

So that you would rightfully preceive an on going threat, one that needed to stop. which for most people would be cause to kill another.

I mean, really. Makes no sense whatsoever in support of your case, if you had one. What's more, is if you did have 'gods love' in your heart, you'd be aware of the fact that bringing up rape to one of your sisters, is immoral in and of itself. Rape is real, not hypothetical.

True but hypothetical rape is still Hypothetical. Rape was used, because on a sliding moral scale(one which you are apart) where sin is judged by severity in relation to bodily harm or death. Rape is the worst thing one could experience over and over, and live to tell about it. Which makes it ideal when one wants to establish the worst on going threat one could imagine, resulting in a desisive absolute response.

In short I wanted to test your claim that 'murder is always wrong.' It appears again that murder is permissiable if and when your popular, morality allows for it.

Read it again yourself, sir. For god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. SO THAT[b] whosoever believes in him shall not perish. What's more, god is love. God is love. What does that mean? It means, god is love. Love is unconditional when speaking about god because he IS love incarnate. By default again, if he IS love, he can't not love certain things, he must love all.

Context context context.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him [b]should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

no commentary needed. This NKJV Read states it pretty clearly God's offer, God's Love is conditional. The word Agapao (what is translated into "love" in Jhn 3:16) in of itself refers to 1) of persons

a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
It is this Agapaeo that is offered To all of those who accept His Son's sacerfice. (Hence: Who so ever BELIEVES)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...=G25&t=KJV

Irregardless of the fact that that sacrifice only saves those willing to bow on a knee in thanks, he still did it because he is love and loves the world. He has to love his creation, that's what believers of your same belief system say. Are you saying that your interpretation is right over theirs? I wouldn't dare say my opinion is better than that of an equally qualified individual who has reviewed the same evidence. Maybe you should go deflate that enormous head of yours, and get back to me.
[/quote]I guess "the bible website" (whatever that means) Doesn't have a bible that includes john 16, 17 or 18. As you can plainly see God's love for us put His son on a cross, which brings salvation to all who believe (which subsequently are those in whom Paul is speaking in the passage of Roman you quoted.. Believers) and Condemns all who do not believe to Hell. I guess that would be an example of a 'tough love' if you "Bible website" referance was actually true.

Also, funny thing. Your 'Bible website' reference is Exactly why I tend to quote from wiki first. Because you guys prize foolish commentary (where you are told what to think) over actual reference materiale blue letter. (where one is made to think)

[Surtr]

*Sigh*. Of course my first post gets ignored.

It is far and apart from God' Perfect standard of Righteousness.

So true, perfect righteousness includes racism, murder, slavery, and intolerance?

live however he or she see fitnd can still feel "right about it."

If you don't live the way God wants you to, you go to Hell and suffer forever.

[catfish]

If you don't live the way God wants you to, you go to Hell and suffer forever.

The Bible doesn't actually say that...
.

[Surtr]

The Bible doesn't actually say that...

Free will isn't having your actions planned out for you by God and then ending up in hell because you didn't do what God wanted you to do.

[catfish]

The Bible doesn't actually say that...

Free will isn't having your actions planned out for you by God and then ending up in hell because you didn't do what God wanted you to do.

Which "hell" are you talking about? The grave? Hades? Ghehenna? Tartarus?
Beside that, I was referring to the "forever" part... The Bible does NOT state "forever"...
.

[The Grand Nudger]

I', starting to think that I might as well close up my little anti-theist shop..Drich is spreading that viewpoint more effectively.

Whats the score at present?

A god that created two unequal sets of men
A god that draws it's authority from might
A god that set an immpossible task
A god that does not love you
A god that officially hands out kill orders and license thereof
A god that makes no promise of fairness or equity



Just tell us how he hit a baby and hates America and we can all be done with it eh?

[Mystical]

Before I reply to you, you have misunderstood my entire post and therefore replied with such misunderstanding, making it pointless to reply to half of it.

Missluckie26 said:
Before you go spouting off that I indeed dictate what others do myself in terms of not wanting others to murder or rape--consider this. You were put on this earth, so was I. We are equals. If you kill me or rape me, then you are treading upon my rights as a human being and I must dictate that you can't do that, in order to protect my own existence. [/quote]

Drich said:
WOW, so before you go any further let me get this straight. It is ok to murder if you deem it ok?


I did not in any of my posts, say it was all right to murder. Factually the opposite, actually. I may dictate through a law that you can't murder me, and thus have there be a punishment for it but that punishment would definitely not be death, or I'd be as bad as the murderer. Punishment meaning, rendering you incapable of hurting. Even hitler, I wouldn't have murdered I just woulda locked his crazy ass up. I can't see how you interpreted any of my anti-murder quotes, as that I would murder to keep a murderer from murdering. Nope, not real. Not happening. Please re-read my posts and reply accordingly to what I was saying, thanks.

[Drich]

*Sigh*. Of course my first post gets ignored.

It is far and apart from God' Perfect standard of Righteousness.

So true, perfect righteousness includes racism, murder, slavery, and intolerance?

live however he or she see fitnd can still feel "right about it."

If you don't live the way God wants you to, you go to Hell and suffer forever.

Yes! And No. Because we can not live the way God tells us to live He has provided attonement for our short commings.