Biblical Inerrancy - mandatory to be Christian?

[Tex]

"I think you'll find a great many christians who disagree with you on this count."

That's why I said, "even though most people use faith to mean 'knowledge of the existence of God'". Please read what you quote. Thanks.

"In what way do you imagine that the entire demeanor of a person who firmly believes here is no sort of god would be different from anyone else - or that this difference would be due to their firm belief that no sort of god existed?"

This is what I was trying to point out with pride. If God is omniscient and omnibeneficent like we're assuming, God is right. On everything. How could he not be? If people refuse to give up their own ideas (which would then be false), their own ways of life (which would not be best), or their allegiance (which would not be respectful), or something else disrespects God, he can't force these out of them without taking away their freedom to choose. He lets them go.

"This is starting to sound less like an exploration on who might find themselves in heaven or hell...and more like an attempt to create novel definitions for things like faith in order to launch a polemic against pride (wondering why you perceive pride as such a dirty thing anyway)."

If you don't understand the definition of faith, how can you do any exploration of salvation? Your insults are always the least thought out...

"If doing "the good" means accepting god, I'm going to have to start seriously considering doing "the bad" - aren't I?"

"The Bad" doesn't exist. You can do things that are not part of "the Good", but those don't play a role in salvation.

"Nevertheless, what I see here is a situation in which a belief in god, the "revealed words of god" or even any concept of god is far less than necessary to achieve the cosmic carrot."

Not far less. You have to follow his morality. It helps to know what God has said about morality, because those with the knowledge have a helping hand while those that don't have the knowledge are left to what little we have naturally to figure it out. Also note, this is the bare minimum and highly unlikely way. The sure way is faith, baptism, and Eucharist. If done by the person in all honesty and humbleness, if they still have faith at death, their salvation is ensured.

"Seeing as how doing "the good" is entirely more beneficial to both myself and my fellow man than any belief personally held would ever be (consider, you've set up a situation in which doing the good might grant entry in and of itself - but belief is no such key) - I see no reason to waste any time I could spend doing "the good" expressing or contemplating any belief. Seems to me that my time would be better spent enhancing the lives of the poor fuckers down here on the prison planet that you're so keen to escape."

Part of the Good is how you treat God. If you have no theologically minded thoughts or are hostile against any sort of being with considerable power/authority, you lack necessary parts of the Good. These, depending on your willingness to change, are variables to the equation. Also, no matter what people tell you, there is no actual support for a "we live in heaven forever". Christians will stay here, too. New Jerusalem comes down, not we go up. Resurrection means physical bodies.

"On the other hand - if your assessment were true, I don't know that I'd want to continue doing "the good" because I don't want to spend eternity (or even a moment) with your god. Tough position to be in, I'm sure you'll appreciate that?"

And here is that statement of pride that I have been speaking about. I don't know how great your pride really is. Perhaps it's just insecurity on your position? I can't read your mind. I do know that generally, people that make this comment have empathy for the evils the see. You incorrectly blame my God for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that you will never change your mind. You could potentially stick to your resentment and walk away with the others, but I don't know if you will.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's why I said, "even though most people use faith to mean 'knowledge of the existence of God'". Please read what you quote. Thanks.

Just reiterating a point that both of us agree on - a point that bears notice.

This is what I was trying to point out with pride. If God is omniscient and omnibeneficent like we're assuming, God is right. On everything. How could he not be? If people refuse to give up their own ideas (which would then be false), their own ways of life (which would not be best), or their allegiance (which would not be respectful), or something else disrespects God, he can't force these out of them without taking away their freedom to choose. He lets them go.

If it's his knowledge that makes him right (omniscience), then I don't see why I need him. I'll just look for that knowledge myself, cut out the middleman - in the meantime I'll continue doing what I;m already doing, you know "the good". My "own ideas" might end up being the same ideas that god has - what with the knowledge being out there and all - for either of us to grasp. I'm entirely okay with your god "letting me go". Again, in what way would my entire demeanor be different, and how would this be due to a firm belief that no sort of god existed?

If you don't understand the definition of faith, how can you do any exploration of salvation? Your insults are always the least thought out...

More accurately, if I don't accept your definition of faith - a definition which we both agree not every christian would hold to........

"The Bad" doesn't exist. You can do things that are not part of "the Good", but those don't play a role in salvation.

Then "the bad" exists if only by comparison to "the good".

Not far less. You have to follow his morality. It helps to know what God has said about morality,

Why? Besides, I thought you just said that it was his knowledge that made him right. He may know whats right, but I might also, do either of us own it? I hardly think so.

because those with the knowledge have a helping hand while those that don't have the knowledge are left to what little we have naturally to figure it out. Also note, this is the bare minimum and highly unlikely way. The sure way is faith, baptism, and Eucharist. If done by the person in all honesty and humbleness, if they still have faith at death, their salvation is ensured.

But I'm not interested in shortcuts via magic Tex. I don't mind taking the time, walking the path, and figuring these things out for myself. I find that I value thing much more highly when I've had to do something to achieve them. Handouts don't really do it for me. Besides...you did mention that I didn't -need them-. So what gives?

Part of the Good is how you treat God. If you have no theologically minded thoughts or are hostile against any sort of being with considerable power/authority, you lack necessary parts of the Good. These, depending on your willingness to change, are variables to the equation. Also, no matter what people tell you, there is no actual support for a "we live in heaven forever". Christians will stay here, too. New Jerusalem comes down, not we go up. Resurrection means physical bodies.

Meh, I can't see how I treat god like anything, never met the man, never spoke to the man, never met anyone who met or spoke to the man. You're confusing your own opinions and thoughts on the matter for "god" it would seem. Meh, I lack necessary parts of the good, you lack necessary parts of the good - you did mention this yourself, that no one has it all. I fail to see why I should have to have it all, all of a sudden, or that the part you have is suddenly better than the part I have. It hardly matters to me where your fairy is going to set up it;s palace. Wherever that is, is a place I don't want to be.

And here is that statement of pride that I have been speaking about. I don't know how great your pride really is. Perhaps it's just insecurity on your position? I can't read your mind. I do know that generally, people that make this comment have empathy for the evils the see. You incorrectly blame my God for a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that you will never change your mind. You could potentially stick to your resentment and walk away with the others, but I don't know if you will.

It's not a statement of pride, it;s just a statement of opinion. You're right...you can't read my mind - so what was that again about pride? I'm not incorrectly blaming your god for anything - to be completely blunt - I don't blame your god for anything. I can state with absolute certainty that I'm never going to change my mind on the things that prevent me from being a christian - so don't hold out any "hope" for me on that count - it's a waste of time. It's not a matter of resentment, because your god has never wronged me - your god and I have never had any interaction whatsoever. If the only way you can deal with my rather plain objections is to insist "you might change your mind!" then I'm pretty sure you don't have much to tell me that's going to be the impetus for any changing of my mind Tex.

All I see here is a common fantasy about a bitter resentful atheist that blames god for wrongdoing and can't do "the good" because he doesn't believe (and on this count I can't even say that you have a very consistent fantasy). An atheist who would change his mind if someone just cleared up all his misconceptions. If you can't divorce me from your fantasy of me - who are you actually addressing when you respond to my posts? (hint:he's between your ears)

[Neo-Scholastic]

If you have no theologically minded thoughts or are hostile against any sort of being with considerable power/authority, you lack necessary parts of the Good. These, depending on your willingness to change, are variables to the equation.

Totally agree.

Also, no matter what people tell you, there is no actual support for a "we live in heaven forever". Christians will stay here, too. New Jerusalem comes down, not we go up. Resurrection means physical bodies.

(Swedenborgian clears throat...) Have you ever calculated the size of a literal New Jerusalem? The Apocalypse is so richly endowed with symbolism, how can you even pretend that John's was witnessing physical events? So why does resurrection have to be a physical body (i.e. one governed by the laws of physics). Jesus in his glorified state had a body that transcended all natural laws, changing appearance and manifesting in closed rooms. We are told we will get a new body, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. But is doesn't say you get a new "physical" body, etc. I don't see the point of waiting around for 'end times' before getting your new spiritual body.

[Tex]

If it's his knowledge that makes him right (omniscience), then I don't see why I need him. I'll just look for that knowledge myself, cut out the middleman - in the meantime I'll continue doing what I;m already doing, you know "the good". My "own ideas" might end up being the same ideas that god has - what with the knowledge being out there and all - for either of us to grasp.

So you don't want God, but you do want everything that he does... God is the source of truth, so there is no knowledge outside of God. God is the source of goodness, so there is no goodness outside of God. You want everything that God offers and nothing to do with God. Can't have it both ways.

(Swedenborgian clears throat...) Have you ever calculated the size of a literal New Jerusalem? The Apocalypse is so richly endowed with symbolism, how can you even pretend that John's was witnessing physical events? So why does resurrection have to be a physical body (i.e. one governed by the laws of physics). Jesus in his glorified state had a body that transcended all natural laws, changing appearance and manifesting in closed rooms. We are told we will get a new body, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. But is doesn't say you get a new "physical" body, etc. I don't see the point of waiting around for 'end times' before getting your new spiritual body.

Revelation is jam packed with symbolism, but that doesn't make it useless in learning. You said yourself, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. If we all around around in heaven, whats the purpose of the new earth? I see a restoration of the garden of eden. Plants, animals, physical bodies, hot, cold, and everything else to do with the material universe is good. It was good then and good now. If we don't have physical bodies, we are limited in how many good things we can receive. The difference from the bodies we have now and the bodies we will have is that we won't have any restrictions of the body.

More accurately, if I don't accept your definition of faith - a definition which we both agree not every christian would hold to........

So your previous comment was meaningless... This is usually how our conversations go and why I have you on ignore.
Tex: I claim position X is true.
Rhythm: Its not really X, its more like Y, but (insert random insult here).
T: Since we're assuming Z for the time being, you can't do Y.
R: I don't assume.
T: Then you're post didn't actually contribute to anything and you're nothing but a troll.
R: I know... I like it...

Why? Besides, I thought you just said that it was his knowledge that made him right. He may know whats right, but I might also, do either of us own it? I hardly think so.

God owns it. You cannot get knowledge outside of God. If you choose to walk, which is your option, you are renouncing truth. Sure, you can go make up your own "truth", but that is exactly what I'm talking about with "the tortures in hell are from the people themselves".

But I'm not interested in shortcuts via magic Tex. I don't mind taking the time, walking the path, and figuring these things out for myself. I find that I value thing much more highly when I've had to do something to achieve them. Handouts don't really do it for me. Besides...you did mention that I didn't -need them-. So what gives?

I was speaking of this life... If some Christian wonders, "Do I really have faith?", they can be assured in their baptism and Eucharist. After resurrection, assurance really isn't necessary. However, the workings of the universe, metaphysics, ethical formulas, God himself, and more get to studied for the rest of eternity. The only answer we get are that we're in paradise.

Meh, I can't see how I treat god like anything, never met the man, never spoke to the man, never met anyone who met or spoke to the man. You're confusing your own opinions and thoughts on the matter for "god" it would seem. Meh, I lack necessary parts of the good, you lack necessary parts of the good - you did mention this yourself, that no one has it all.

You're proving my point. If there is truly a God up there, you are certainly doing him a disservice. Also, "necessary" is the Good towards God. At the most basic form, this is an internal disposition toward God, even if never reflected outward. No threat being made here (mainly because I don't have any power to enforce it), but I don't lack the necessary and, if I trust your words, you do. Faking a faith wouldn't help though, but once adult, the first step toward an actual relationship is humility.

An atheist who would change his mind if someone just cleared up all his misconceptions.

I totally don't this, it is soooooo not a misconception. It much more uniting your personal purpose with God. I don't think a non-personal God would appeal even in the least bit. Unless God somehow becomes this thing in your head that cares, God is worthless to you.

[Neo-Scholastic]

If we don't have physical bodies, we are limited in how many good things we can receive. The difference from the bodies we have now and the bodies we will have is that we won't have any restrictions of the body.

The spiritual world contains all the things in the material world only better. The material world is a pale shadow of the spiritual world. The way Platonic forms are more real that the shadows on the cave wall.

[The Grand Nudger]

So you don't want God, but you do want everything that he does... God is the source of truth, so there is no knowledge outside of God. God is the source of goodness, so there is no goodness outside of God. You want everything that God offers and nothing to do with God. Can't have it both ways.

Platitudinous bullshit Tex, spare me. But you know what, you don't really have any more trouble with this than I. It's a good bet that the societies you and I live in are built on a foundation of skulls, you;re clearly not living in a cave. Neither of us is going to throw out aspirin because medical science had some Jospeh Mengele's in it either, are we? All of this ignoring that your super fairy didn't do any of this, and isn't the source of anything....

So your previous comment was meaningless... This is usually how our conversations go and why I have you on ignore.
Tex: I claim position X is true.
Rhythm: Its not really X, its more like Y, but (insert random insult here).
T: Since we're assuming Z for the time being, you can't do Y.
R: I don't assume.
T: Then you're post didn't actually contribute to anything and you're nothing but a troll.
R: I know... I like it...

I think I did a pretty good job of explaining why it was important to reiterate, but that's also a cool story you got there, bro.

God owns it. You cannot get knowledge outside of God. If you choose to walk, which is your option, you are renouncing truth. Sure, you can go make up your own "truth", but that is exactly what I'm talking about with "the tortures in hell are from the people themselves".

Then that bit before about god being right because he was omnsicient isn't entirely accurate, now is it. He's just right because he's god and he owns shit and yadda yadda yadda......

I was speaking of this life... If some Christian wonders, "Do I really have faith?", they can be assured in their baptism and Eucharist. After resurrection, assurance really isn't necessary. However, the workings of the universe, metaphysics, ethical formulas, God himself, and more get to studied for the rest of eternity. The only answer we get are that we're in paradise.

Studying things for the rest of eternity sounds awesome...I don;t know why you had to depth charge it with the whole paradise and god thing...because if that one little bit were left out....

You're proving my point. If there is truly a God up there, you are certainly doing him a disservice. Also, "necessary" is the Good towards God. At the most basic form, this is an internal disposition toward God, even if never reflected outward. No threat being made here (mainly because I don't have any power to enforce it), but I don't lack the necessary and, if I trust your words, you do. Faking a faith wouldn't help though, but once adult, the first step toward an actual relationship is humility.

You had a point? I'm not doing god any kind of service, let alone a disservice. So, the whole faith and god leaning bit is required after all, what was all that shit about doing the good? I think you're just pulling things into the fold now.

I totally don't this, it is soooooo not a misconception. It much more uniting your personal purpose with God. I don't think a non-personal God would appeal even in the least bit. Unless God somehow becomes this thing in your head that cares, God is worthless to you.

Then perhaps you should avoid the script. Meh, the reasons your god is worthless to me don;t really have to do with whether or not it's a personal god - to be frank. It could get as personal as it liked, and I'd still have a few provisions before it became useful.

[Tex]

The spiritual world contains all the things in the material world only better. The material world is a pale shadow of the spiritual world. The way Platonic forms are more real that the shadows on the cave wall.

Why is murder considered "taking a life"? Isn't it just striking the body? What if I destroy my own body? Isn't it a faster way to that spiritual paradise?

---

@Rhythm

Any normal person can see that you are intentionally twisting words, meanings, and even putting words in my mouth. I would have liked to have rational discussion, but you don't seem to want it. Very well, I'll speak with others on this board more willing that you.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Why is murder considered "taking a life"? Isn't it just striking the body? What if I destroy my own body? Isn't it a faster way to that spiritual paradise?

You already know the many reasons why.

[The Grand Nudger]

I would have loved to have a rational discussion as well Tex, but any hope of that was pretty effectively destroyed the moment you started baldly claiming everything under the sun for mega-pixie.

[Tex]

I only know the reasons why all those are wrong based on philosophy that says the body is good. I don't know your answers.