Universe from Nothing?

[Lion IRC]

The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.

Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.

Yes, it seems counter-intuitive that a random UNDESIGNED universe would appear to intelligible to we who call ourselves sentient beings who can conceive of concepts like volition
and intentionality and creativity.

I think the most compelling aspect of the fine-tuning argument is not so much that we see stuff which theists maintain is deliberate (teleology)
...but that we can tell the difference between the deliberate and the accidental.

Between this;
Sand dune.


And this;
Sand sculpture.

[Walking Void]

Jesus is Lord! Hallelujah! Shit fuck cunt!

For what reason are We presuming that laws have any semblance in a space-time without matter to apply those laws to? Hmmm?

[Minimalist]

Xtians like to make up rules as they go along. Makes it easier to shoehorn their godboy in where he doesn't belong.

[Bipolar Bob]

The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.

Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.

The universe is much too noisy to be called a "legal" universe. You theist seem to forget that this universes is filled with uncertainties and a vast amount of events are unpredictable. The universe is just as much as chaotic as it is ordered.

[Esquilax]

I think the most compelling aspect of the fine-tuning argument is not so much that we see stuff which theists maintain is deliberate (teleology)
...but that we can tell the difference between the deliberate and the accidental.

Ah, I'm going to have fun with this.

Do you know how we ascertain the difference between designed and undesigned things, Lion? It's comparison, not complexity, not intuition, comparison. We contrast the designed against the undesigned.

So if we draw out your fine tuning argument to its logical conclusion, we can see how it falls apart; in accordance with this argument, then everything is designed. There's no point of contrast to be had; when you say you can tell the difference between deliberate things and accidental things, what you're saying, if you believe in fine tuning, is that you're picking out some designed things from a world that is made of nothing else, and calling them accidental, while assigning a label of designed things to everything else, based on whether or not humans have tampered with them. It's entirely arbitrary.

[Jesus is Lord]

@Jesus is Lord

Just a piece of friendly advice, since your new to the forum it might be a good idea to have a quick search for the various arguments you might raise. The chances are quite high that they've been used before and countered. It might help you reformulate and strengthen your own arguments.

Thanks - I appreciate the advice.

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The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.

Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it. A legal universe requires God for its origin.

The universe is much too noisy to be called a "legal" universe. You theist seem to forget that this universes is filled with uncertainties and a vast amount of events are unpredictable. The universe is just as much as chaotic as it is ordered.

Could you explain more what you mean? What elements of the universe would seem to be incapable of being incorporated into a theoretical framework of science?

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I think the most compelling aspect of the fine-tuning argument is not so much that we see stuff which theists maintain is deliberate (teleology)
...but that we can tell the difference between the deliberate and the accidental.

Ah, I'm going to have fun with this.

Do you know how we ascertain the difference between designed and undesigned things, Lion? It's comparison, not complexity, not intuition, comparison. We contrast the designed against the undesigned.

So if we draw out your fine tuning argument to its logical conclusion, we can see how it falls apart; in accordance with this argument, then everything is designed. There's no point of contrast to be had; when you say you can tell the difference between deliberate things and accidental things, what you're saying, if you believe in fine tuning, is that you're picking out some designed things from a world that is made of nothing else, and calling them accidental, while assigning a label of designed things to everything else, based on whether or not humans have tampered with them. It's entirely arbitrary.

Not sure this is a cohesive argument. Would you agree that designed things display ordered, informational content that often contrasts to the immediate environment?

[Godscreated]

JiL, good to have another Christian with us, watch out the natives are restless these days.

GC

[Jesus is Lord]

Who says the universe came from nothing?

How would a materialist begin, if not with nothing?
If you begin with any other concept, wouldn't you of necessity invoke a descriptive / supportive framework - such as, say, quantum physics?
But if a materialist allowed a conceptual framework at or before the start of anything, or, from "eternity" then he would need to explain the existence of this framework, which is, of itself, a conceptual entity - a supernatural thing.
Materialism, by definition, cannot allow anything supernatural.

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JiL, good to have another Christian with us, watch out the natives are restless these days.

GC

Thanks for the welcome, Godschild. Glad to meet you.

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Who says the universe came from nothing?

If you think about it, the invisible laws which uphold the observable universe are far more astounding than the universe itself. The Universe is like a program that runs inside of an operating system. There is an invisible operating system which guides all observable particle behavior, directs all forces. What you see is what is running. What you don't see is the framework that makes all the behavior you can observe, possible.

[Esquilax]

Not sure this is a cohesive argument. Would you agree that designed things display ordered, informational content that often contrasts to the immediate environment?

It depends on what you mean by information, really: in certain usages of the term, everything has ordered informational content, with regards to its position and current state. That's the thing: when creationists talk about "information," it's always this vague term, where it's used more to evoke the idea that the thing containing it is designed, without ever giving it a definition. So, what do you mean?

Besides, my point was that, in a world where god designed everything and fine tuned the world, there can be no contrast between designed/undesigned things, because in that world, everything was designed. The contrast you're seeking is god designed versus human designed, and what would the point of comparison be there? Well, it'd have to be whether the thing looks obviously designed, like the sandcastle above, or things that don't, but must be because of fine tuning. The entire argument is an exercise in question begging.

How would a materialist begin, if not with nothing?

What makes you think we're materialists?

[Jesus is Lord]

The Universe that we can measure and observe is one ruled by laws and order. The very smallest elements which we can study have ordered forms, and follow laws which allow us to predict many, though not all behaviors.

Okay.

Order itself, law itself cannot exist on its own; it requires something of a higher order to give it.

How do you know this?

-Because all systems known to science progress from ordered to disordered states. What ever it is that makes, say, quantum physics possible cannot generate the framework for quantum physics from an equivalently ordered state.

A legal universe requires God for its origin.

IF premise one were true, why would this follow?
IF the conclusion were true, which god would it be, and how would we know?

Which God, and how would we know? God would have to take care of that. Jesus said that those who seek find. God sees those who seek Him, and He rewards them.

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Not sure this is a cohesive argument. Would you agree that designed things display ordered, informational content that often contrasts to the immediate environment?

It depends on what you mean by information, really: in certain usages of the term, everything has ordered informational content, with regards to its position and current state. That's the thing: when creationists talk about "information," it's always this vague term, where it's used more to evoke the idea that the thing containing it is designed, without ever giving it a definition. So, what do you mean?

-Information is a self-distinguishing kind of data that usually cannot be generated by its immediate context, and which refers to or interacts with elements which lay beyond the immediate context. Information may be self-referential, have predictive value, or clearly point to an abstraction layer.

Besides, my point was that, in a world where god designed everything and fine tuned the world, there can be no contrast between designed/undesigned things, because in that world, everything was designed. The contrast you're seeking is god designed versus human designed, and what would the point of comparison be there? Well, it'd have to be whether the thing looks obviously designed, like the sandcastle above, or things that don't, but must be because of fine tuning. The entire argument is an exercise in question begging.

How would a materialist begin, if not with nothing?

What makes you think we're materialists?
[/quote]

An athiest cannot believe in anything beyond the observable physical universe. That is the essence of materialism.

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I'm going to bed now. I won't be able to answer posts for a while. Thanks to everyone who has posted.