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How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am
Some fellow human beings adhere to the stance that the alleged master of the universe has no attributes but existence, and even that according to them is just a matter of faith since existence cannot be perceived directly through the senses. Since ancient times there has been some development from the day to day god burning bushes in the backyard and giving clear however abhorrent and non-sensical messages and commands like slaughter your own son, to a much more cloaked version that leaves absolutely no CO2 footprint and somehow communicates silently in the heads of believers. I wonder, is cloaking a divine evolution thing?
Believing in such a fully cloaked god seems a real challenge to me. Since that god has no attributes but existence, how does it convey information, do miracles (that must leave a footprint), answer prayer and well, do what gods do?
(BTW: Why should his royal infiniteness limit himself to create just one universe when he can create many?)
And also why cloak what is important (or at least aspires to be)?
I hope someone here can shed light on the subject or we are all doomed.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 4:35 am
(This post was last modified: December 23, 2009 at 4:37 am by ib.me.ub.)
Umm, we are all doomed but.....
Quote:(BTW: Why should his royal infiniteness limit himself to create just one universe when he can create many?)
Who's to say ther is only one Universe anyway? What about the Multiverse thingey...! 
Quote:Believing in such a fully cloaked god seems a real challenge to me. Since that god has no attributes but existence, how does it convey information, do miracles (that must leave a footprint), answer prayer and well, do what gods do?
How about anything that exists in reality can be used!!!But maybe in a very small way or something, so as you don't really notice it so much or something... 
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 7:19 am
I know nothing about such a fully cloaked master either. And indeed, apparently we're all doomed because we can't know the unknowable. Oh fiddlesticks.
EvF
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 8:10 am
(December 23, 2009 at 7:19 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I know nothing about such a fully cloaked master either. And indeed, apparently we're all doomed because we can't know the unknowable. Oh fiddlesticks. You mean ignorance is no basis for anything?
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 8:14 am
I wouldn't claim to absolutely know that, no. I would be claiming from ignorance if I did 
EvF
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 8:26 am
So you mean that someone (no particlar specimen intended) who claims anything particular about a god and at the same time denies any perceivable properties of such entity, is using the argument from ignorance fallacy?
What abomination!
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 8:28 am
From Wikipedia: "The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance"), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
So unless such a person claims that they must be right about God because they haven't been proven wrong, or that others must be wrong about God for not proving themselves right... then I guess they aren't falling into it? Unless I'm missing some implication from in your above post?
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 8:49 am
(December 23, 2009 at 8:28 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: From Wikipedia: "The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance"), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
So unless such a person claims that they must be right about God because they haven't been proven wrong, or that others must be wrong about God for not proving themselves right... then I guess they aren't falling into it? Unless I'm missing some implication from in your above post? They are exactly doing that when they claim to know for absolute anything particular about a god (a true premisse) and at the same time deny any perceivable properties of such entity, because the latter implies that it will always be unproven.
If they do not claim it absolute, but assume it on faith only, I really see no difference with fantasizing about goblins in my backyard.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 9:04 am
It seems like they are making a contradiction in their 'logic'... they claim to absolutely know the unknowable... but then I still don't see where they say that God is only proven because he hasn't been proven false. And I'm not sure how they would or could be claiming that God is disproven because he's not been proven true, since they are claiming that he exists not that he doesn't exist (it's just that they are contradicting themselves in regards to his knowability/unknowability. They claim to absolutely know him/have proven him and yet claim that he can't be proven/known).
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RE: How to perceive the fully cloaked master of the universe
December 23, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I'll bite on the thinly veiled bait of a veiled God.
(December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Some fellow human beings adhere to the stance that the alleged master of the universe has no attributes but existence, and even that according to them is just a matter of faith since existence cannot be perceived directly through the senses. Since ancient times there has been some development from the day to day god burning bushes in the backyard and giving clear however abhorrent and non-sensical messages and commands like slaughter your own son, to a much more cloaked version that leaves absolutely no CO2 footprint and somehow communicates silently in the heads of believers. I wonder, is cloaking a divine evolution thing?
1. Existence is a matter of belief but I don't see how it can't be percieved. Are we talking about the reality of existence or the consciousness of existence?
1a. "Cloaking " would be a lack of understanding or perception in things and I would not personally attribute that to an attribute of God, but our lack of understanding of God.The divine doesn't evolve, but our understanding of it does.
(December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Believing in such a fully cloaked god seems a real challenge to me. Since that god has no attributes but existence, how does it convey information, do miracles (that must leave a footprint), answer prayer and well, do what gods do?
2. Through the holy spirit or the occasional divine intervention if you subscribe to that.
(December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: (BTW: Why should his royal infiniteness limit himself to create just one universe when he can create many?)
3. Who's to asy he hasn't, or dimensions for that matter.
(December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: And also why cloak what is important (or at least aspires to be)?
4. There's a phrase that comes to mind, "saves the best for last". Perhaps delayed exposition has the same rewards in another state of existance as in this state.
(December 23, 2009 at 3:37 am)Purple Rabbit Wrote: I hope someone here can shed light on the subject or we are all doomed.
5. We are all most assuredly doomed regardless.
While I'm not sure who this is particularly in reference to I would hope that if it's me that you would be less "veiled" about any contradictions I've made in the hopes of better understanding through discussion.
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