I can't understand muslims

[Mudhammam]

The Qur'an is no more violent (or sensible) than the Judeo-Christian scriptures. I believe the violence perpetuated by self-proclaimed Muslims today is more affected by perceived cultural and political grievances than anything directly associated with Islamic belief. It's inextricably linked to the dissolution of the Ottoman empire following World War I, European nationalism, the arbitrary divisions created by Western colonialists, and the subsequent and frequent interventions of the West into Middle East politics. If we are going to term any country or its people Muslim and overwhelmingly ascribe their conflicts to their religious beliefs, we must also do the same for nations that are predominantly Jewish, Christian, or secular, and those latter have far more human blood to account for.

[Cato]

What does 100 year old geopolitics have to do with people being killed for being the wrong kind of Muslim? Or adultery? Or sorcery? Or insulting the prophet?

Islam is not just the Quran.

People committing atrocities cite Islam as their motivation and use Islamic scripture as justification. By what standard and with what evidence do you dismiss these claims? How do you know better?

Christianity has been neutered by liberal democratic ideals; a struggle that has taken over 350 years. For a proper comparison, you need to compare today's Islam with Christianity when it held unchecked sway over the laws and politics of the lands it dominated.

[Minimalist]

Christianity has been neutered by liberal democratic ideals

And a lot of them are still pissed about it. They don't hate muslims as much as envy them.

[robvalue]

It's as always, people do what they want and cite books as justification. It just makes it easier for them when the books condone just about anything.

[Mudhammam]

What does 100 year old geopolitics have to do with people being killed for being the wrong kind of Muslim? Or adultery? Or sorcery? Or insulting the prophet?

Islam is not just the Quran.

People committing atrocities cite Islam as their motivation and use Islamic scripture as justification. By what standard and with what evidence do you dismiss these claims? How do you know better?

Christianity has been neutered by liberal democratic ideals; a struggle that has taken over 350 years. For a proper comparison, you need to compare today's Islam with Christianity when it held unchecked sway over the laws and politics of the lands it dominated.

Look, you can't overstate the fact that we contributed to the defeat and humiliation of an empire that had existed since 1299. Then we literally took a ruler to a map and divided up land, placed it under European control, while national, fascist, and communistic sentiments were at the peak, displaced thousands of peoples and transferred them to the countries we thought they should belong, and imported our styles of government, its symbols, into their culture, which, instead of Christian or white supremacy associations, became incorporated with their language which predominately revolves around Islam. The West persists as foreign agitators to this day.

And to take it back further, Christianity (the West) and Islam have always been at odds. The United States, if you want to call it secular is irreverent, is justly associated with the Christian scourge in its side that has existed since the conception of Islam as a religion that, like Judaism, is primarily a social doctrine and attitude. I agree that, like Judaism, and Christianity, it needs reformation, but like any culture that has clung to a basic set of rules for hundreds or thousands of years, it is going to inevitably be stubborn. Hell, the U.S., we're less than a century ahead of the Middle East when it comes to modern sensibilities on women's rights, we're STILL in the process of recognizing the equal status of homosexuals and minorities. It terms of human rights, are we better for droning farms and weddings instead of beheading their persons individually? Let's not even get into our culture's vain fascination with celebrities and petty gossip, the drug war, or THE FACT THAT WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN CAGES THAN CHINA. We're gonna thumb our noses at who now?

[mralstoner]

[Iloveporc]

I dont want to convert at all but when i will understand things better it will allow me to let her go easier

Let her go already. Anyone who demands you make that sort of change to retain their favor is wanting to control you, for reasons you may or may not not understand.

Yes, thanks. only the fact she left me because i'm an unbeliever of her religion as i treated her the best i could..is already enough to move on and maybe a reason more why i would never become muslim

[robvalue]

Awesome takedown mral, you just split Islam wide open and then choked it until it tapped out.

If anyone wants to support it after reading that, they are mental.

[Cato]

Look, you can't overstate the fact that we contributed to the defeat and humiliation of an empire that had existed since 1299. Then we literally took a ruler to a map and divided up land, placed it under European control, while national, fascist, and communistic sentiments were at the peak, displaced thousands of peoples and transferred them to the countries we thought they should belong, and imported our styles of government, its symbols, into their culture, which, instead of Christian or white supremacy associations, became incorporated with their language which predominately revolves around Islam. The West persists as foreign agitators to this day.

And to take it back further, Christianity (the West) and Islam have always been at odds. The United States, if you want to call it secular is irreverent, is justly associated with the Christian scourge in its side that has existed since the conception of Islam as a religion that, like Judaism, is primarily a social doctrine and attitude. I agree that, like Judaism, and Christianity, it needs reformation, but like any culture that has clung to a basic set of rules for hundreds or thousands of years, it is going to inevitably be stubborn. Hell, the U.S., we're less than a century ahead of the Middle East when it comes to modern sensibilities on women's rights, we're STILL in the process of recognizing the equal status of homosexuals and minorities. It terms of human rights, are we better for droning farms and weddings instead of beheading their persons individually? Let's not even get into our culture's vain fascination with celebrities and petty gossip, the drug war, or THE FACT THAT WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE IN CAGES THAN CHINA. We're gonna thumb our noses at who now?

The consequence of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI as a contributing factor is overstated. The Ottoman Empire peaked in the 16th/17th century and quickly lost its ability centrally control its inhabitants. Essentially, the Ottoman Empire would influence foreign affairs, but local tribes were in complete control of regional governance.

Wahhabism developed in the 18th century. Its intolerance for other Muslims and use of violence for propagation was established long before WWI. The Ottoman Empire was able to limit its spread in the 19th century; however, the Wahhabist Sauds had reestablished themselves on the Arabian peninsula prior to WWI. The key thing to understand here is that the Wahhabis were enemies of the Ottoman Empire so the idea that their continued violence is somehow caused by the humiliation of a once proud empire is misplaced. If anything, post WWI partitioning of the Ottoman Empire served to solidify the regional claims of the Wahhabis.

You are right to point out our continued failures relative to human/civil rights, particularly if the point is to raise awareness, determine its causes, and propose solutions. I agree with your assessment; however, pouring them into this conversation comes across as a tu quoque argument.

The equivocation that attends the comparisons is also quite hideous. It won't be long before the LBGT community faces no marriage prohibitions anywhere in the U.S. Care to discuss the penalty for being homosexual in KSA? Another distressing aspect of the comparison is that the angst in the U.S. on the issue of LBGT rights is mostly driven by Christian religious sensibilities yet some seem hell bent on giving religion a pass when it comes to assessing motivation for intolerance and discrimination.

[Jackie]

Nothing to understand about Muslims. What is to understand is evolution in all of our species history. Religion and politics and even business models are nothing but our human constructs to set up social order.

The sooner our species accepts we are all out for resources the better we can manage our divisions and still allow for differences.