I can't understand muslims

[Mudhammam]

The consequence of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI as a contributing factor is overstated. The Ottoman Empire peaked in the 16th/17th century and quickly lost its ability centrally control its inhabitants. Essentially, the Ottoman Empire would influence foreign affairs, but local tribes were in complete control of regional governance.

Even if this singular point is granted, it only demonstrates that instability in the region was profoundly compounded and exasperated by the other factors I included, the sum of which I maintain cannot be overstated and are oftentimes ignored. That's not to say religion hasn't played a role in the brutality displayed but that role is only presumed by "Islam" to the extent that conservative sects and traditional cultures find common cause with violent extremists who are more politically motivated. You provide an example and a pretext that isn't strictly religious:

Wahhabism developed in the 18th century. Its intolerance for other Muslims and use of violence for propagation was established long before WWI. The Ottoman Empire was able to limit its spread in the 19th century; however, the Wahhabist Sauds had reestablished themselves on the Arabian peninsula prior to WWI. The key thing to understand here is that the Wahhabis were enemies of the Ottoman Empire so the idea that their continued violence is somehow caused by the humiliation of a once proud empire is misplaced. If anything, post WWI partitioning of the Ottoman Empire served to solidify the regional claims of the Wahhabis.

You are right to point out our continued failures relative to human/civil rights, particularly if the point is to raise awareness, determine its causes, and propose solutions. I agree with your assessment; however, pouring them into this conversation comes across as a tu quoque argument.

Rather, my purpose is to demonstrate the error of linking the violence and sectarian disputes to an umbrella religion as though they were inseparable features. The issues are no more Islamic per se than they are regional, political, and socio-economical. One may rightly argue that Islam promotes credulity and that can easily be converted into ideological zeal, but that problem is not uniquely Islamic or limited to the Middle East.

The equivocation that attends the comparisons is also quite hideous. It won't be long before the LBGT community faces no marriage prohibitions anywhere in the U.S. Care to discuss the penalty for being homosexual in KSA? Another distressing aspect of the comparison is that the angst in the U.S. on the issue of LBGT rights is mostly driven by Christian religious sensibilities yet some seem hell bent on giving religion a pass when it comes to assessing motivation for intolerance and discrimination.

I have nothing to add except that transitions such as those we are presently observing in the West, with regards to human rights, take a long time, and where one specific issue witnesses progress, others can be seen to have regressed or remained stagnant. Christianity does not get a pass. Neither do secular religions that place their faith in the power and wisdom of the State.

[mralstoner]

If anyone wants to support it after reading that, they are mental.

True, but unfortunately there's no shortage of mental folks who seem impervious to these facts.

[robvalue]

True. It's not entirely their fault, peer pressure and the human's natural instinct to conform plays a huge part I think. Even when there isn't a guy with a sword to your throat.

[ManMachine]

Hello i'm new on this forum. Im an 20 yo atheist living in a european multicultural country and i grew up between a majority of muslims. My muslim girlfriend of 3 years rejected me suddenly for her religion telling me i wasnt muslim so i could forget about her. She asked me a few times during our relationshipto to learn about islam. So here i am a few months later still impossible to get over all this. There are still alot of things to sort out in my head

Wanted to know a few point of views on islam from other atheists that have knowledge and studied islam or at least comprehension of the Koran. Replies like "islam is a barbaric religion with a paedophilic prophet" aren't going to help me alot. I see people commenting these kind of things everywhere for example on religious videos on youtube and its always the same over and over again..muslims always react like "no islam is a peacuful religion" or "go read the Koran and you will find the truth". From my personal experience i've read some verses from the Koran and some hadiths and yes there are some peacefull things but on the other hand there are other verses that are contradicting or violent i'm talking about punishments and things like that. When i tell that this to muslims either they answer that i should read those verses in their context (which i did and it didn't change anything to their violence) or they deny and tell me that they never heard about such things. Ive heard about taqiyya too but it would would surprise me all muslim parents told secretely to their muslim kids that they had to hide the bad sides of islam to all the non-believers. What do i have to conclude off this? That most muslims didnt read the koran or that they only pick the peaceful verses? Or do i misinterpretade those verses. The reason why i'm so concerned with this is because i loved my ex alot and i will still feel some kind guilt for being rejected even though i know she's the one to blame. I dont want to convert at all but when i will understand things better it will allow me to let her go easier

Religion affects people in different ways. This is not all down to her religion, some of it will be down to her personality. The Quran does not prohibit Muslim women marrying a non-Muslim, just prohibits them from marrying a person who commits 'shirk',

Quaranic verses on Marriage

So, my guess is that she is either too blinded by her religion to see past a bad interpretation or she is using the religion as an excuse to dump you, either way it's probably best that you forget her and move on to a healthy relationship.

MM

[Iloveporc]

Hello i'm new on this forum. Im an 20 yo atheist living in a european multicultural country and i grew up between a majority of muslims. My muslim girlfriend of 3 years rejected me suddenly for her religion telling me i wasnt muslim so i could forget about her. She asked me a few times during our relationshipto to learn about islam. So here i am a few months later still impossible to get over all this. There are still alot of things to sort out in my head

Wanted to know a few point of views on islam from other atheists that have knowledge and studied islam or at least comprehension of the Koran. Replies like "islam is a barbaric religion with a paedophilic prophet" aren't going to help me alot. I see people commenting these kind of things everywhere for example on religious videos on youtube and its always the same over and over again..muslims always react like "no islam is a peacuful religion" or "go read the Koran and you will find the truth". From my personal experience i've read some verses from the Koran and some hadiths and yes there are some peacefull things but on the other hand there are other verses that are contradicting or violent i'm talking about punishments and things like that. When i tell that this to muslims either they answer that i should read those verses in their context (which i did and it didn't change anything to their violence) or they deny and tell me that they never heard about such things. Ive heard about taqiyya too but it would would surprise me all muslim parents told secretely to their muslim kids that they had to hide the bad sides of islam to all the non-believers. What do i have to conclude off this? That most muslims didnt read the koran or that they only pick the peaceful verses? Or do i misinterpretade those verses. The reason why i'm so concerned with this is because i loved my ex alot and i will still feel some kind guilt for being rejected even though i know she's the one to blame. I dont want to convert at all but when i will understand things better it will allow me to let her go easier

Religion affects people in different ways. This is not all down to her religion, some of it will be down to her personality. The Quran does not prohibit Muslim women marrying a non-Muslim, just prohibits them from marrying a person who commits 'shirk',

Quaranic verses on Marriage

So, my guess is that she is either too blinded by her religion to see past a bad interpretation or she is using the religion as an excuse to dump you, either way it's probably best that you forget her and move on to a healthy relationship.

MM

Islam is still not very clear because it can be interpretated in so many ways. Thanks for the link. The first part describes exactly how her point of view was. She said a 'kaffir' can't marry a muslim woman because kids will always follow the example of the father. Its sick how they always plan to spread religion with tactics like that.

Yeah she surely was completely blinded. And if she truly loved me she wouldn't have left me like that.

---

My muslim girlfriend of 3 years rejected me suddenly for her religion telling me i wasnt muslim so i could forget about her. She asked me a few times during our relationshipto to learn about islam.

I had a brief romance with a Muslim woman while she was here on holidays, until she went back home to Malaysia. She started chatting me up and I found it amusing at first because I had learned a lot of bad things about Islam but never really spoken to a Muslim before. I thought we'd just be chatting but she kept coming on to me and that's the last thing I expected from her. Turns out she's really a Westerner at heart. Even though she takes her praying, food, and fasting seriously, she "doesn't want to know many verses". Life in Malaysia sounds a bit stifling and I think she just wanted to have some fun with me.

At one point she wanted to move here to Australia and live with me but I said that's not a good idea because we are way too different. I never told her all the bad things I knew about Islam because our personalities instantly clicked, and neither of us had any desire to talk religion. We were just happy to enjoy each other's company. We still keep in touch on the computer but we both know it will never work because of our differences. At best it will be a casual relationship if she comes back here on holidays.

What do i have to conclude off this? That most muslims didnt read the koran or that they only pick the peaceful verses? Or do i misinterpretade those verses.

Confusion is the logical response to reading the Koran, because it is a jumbled contradictory mess. The only way to make sense of Islam is to read the biography of Mohammed. His first 13 years in Mecca were relatively peaceful, but his last 9 years in Medina were murder, mayhem, sex slaves, head chopping, and perpetual wars against those who did not submit to Allah.

The Koran is not arranged chronologically so the peaceful verses are mixed up with the violent verses.

So, what is true Islam? I think the terrorists like ISIS and Al Qaeda have the true version of Islam, but that's not actually the important point. The critical point is that Muslims can interpret either peacefully, violently, or ignore the Koran altogether. The bottom line is: you never know what type of Muslim you're dealing with, because Islam is so contradictory.

That said, I recommend watching the videos below by Dr Bill Warner (physicist) who has done a statistical study of the Islamic holy books (Koran, Hadith, Sira) in order to objectively draw out the main themes of Islam.
-------------

Here's everything I know about Islam ...

Islam is defined as the worship of Allah, and the imitation of Mohammed. There are 90 verses in the Koran which implore Muslims to imitate the prophet Mohammed. He is the perfect role model for all Muslims to follow ("a beautiful pattern of conduct").

Unfortunately the biography of Mohammed reads like a war documentary:
https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeOfMoha...3/mode/1up

Mohammed beheaded 600-900 Jews on one day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza

Mohammed ordered or supported 43 assassinations.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killin...y_Muhammad

The prophet Mohammed commanded 65 military campaigns, and fought in 27 of them. He averaged an event of violence every 6 weeks for the last 9 years of his life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sYgqRtZGg

The prophet Mohammed beheaded poets who criticised him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muhammad_12.jpg

The prophet Mohammed took Safiyah to bed on the night of torturing her husband to death.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/safiyah.htm

Mohammed sanctioned sex slaves as the spoils of war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csl0gxWnyzs

In early Islam, the biography of Mohammed was known as Maghazi (literally, stories of military expeditions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirat_Rasul_Allah

The Islamic holy books (Koran, Hadith, Sira) contain more Jew hatred (9%) than Mein Kampf (7%).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjBDDC4wVxk

The Islamic calendar begins when Mohammed stopped being a peaceful preacher in Mecca and became a violent warlord in Medina.

The prophet Mohammed was poisoned by a Jewish women, following his attack on the Jewish settlement of Khaibar. He died three years later as a result.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/mo-death.htm

Three of the first four Caliphs (Muslim rulers after the death of Mohammed) were so well loved and respected, they met with violent death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate#Rashidun_Caliphs

Bottom line, the head choppers have an awful lot of material to present a very plausible version of Islam. Consequently, we have to treat the Islamic holy books as a clear and present danger, much like other dangerous ideologies such as Nazism and Communism.

That relation you had with that malaysian girl, there are some points that remind me of how i non-reacted about islam with my ex. Once she became radical and began wearing headscarf i didn't talk about bad her religion anymore. And maybe she needed more support from me, but i found it made no sense at all to support her beliefs as it teaches her to reject me finally.

And thanks i learned quiete alot with those videos of bill warner. He has a very clear and objectif view on islam. Haha i didn't know mo went nuts once in medina and became a killing war machine. Yet i dont understand why muslim fellows always say mo was the most perfect and peaceful human alive. I think they are sheep who only listen to what they have been told by their parents or community or only pick up what they want to hear

[Iloveporc]

I did some personal researches on muhammed's life and i have to say i'm completely confused. Guys like bill warner claim muhammed became evil in Medina. But muhammed lived peacefully in mecca and he only tried to spread 'the word of god' to the meccans. And the only few followers he had, have been persecuted and even tortured and muhammed had to escape from mecca. he even created a community where jews, christians and muslims could leave peacefully togheter. And in medina he didn't start war for nothing, there was a reason..it was to protect himself from attacking people. But even then he asked for peace with his ennemies afterwards

[Mystic]

I did some personal researches on muhammed's life and i have to say i'm completely confused. Guys like bill warner claim muhammed became evil in Medina. But muhammed lived peacefully in mecca and he only tried to spread 'the word of god' to the meccans. And the only few followers he had, have been persecuted and even tortured and muhammed had to escape from mecca. he even created a community where jews, christians and muslims could leave peacefully togheter. And in medina he didn't start war for nothing, there was a reason..it was to protect himself from attacking people. But even then he asked for peace with his ennemies afterwards

It's good you are doing your own research, there verses in Quran that specifically says fighting has been allowed now because they are oppressed and only to fight those who fight you, and to incline to peace if the other side inclines to peace.

Also, the opinion of a lot of scholars, even ones in the past, is that disbelievers refers to those who disbelieve guidance that has become clear to them, while doesn't refer to those who don't know it's true.

Thus a believer is also one who follows guidance of God that has come to them, and that as different individually, and can include Atheists.

I go on and off faith in Islam. Today I believe more in Islam then not, so I say this sincerely...I don't think Islam teaches to disrespect people or to hate people or to fight people of other faiths.

If it taught that, I would no longer think about the religion and wouldn't be going faith one day and then disbelief for a week, then faith one day then disbelief for a week thing I been going through.

[Iloveporc]

I did some personal researches on muhammed's life and i have to say i'm completely confused. Guys like bill warner claim muhammed became evil in Medina. But muhammed lived peacefully in mecca and he only tried to spread 'the word of god' to the meccans. And the only few followers he had, have been persecuted and even tortured and muhammed had to escape from mecca. he even created a community where jews, christians and muslims could leave peacefully togheter. And in medina he didn't start war for nothing, there was a reason..it was to protect himself from attacking people. But even then he asked for peace with his ennemies afterwards

It's good you are doing your own research, there verses in Quran that specifically says fighting has been allowed now because they are oppressed and only to fight those who fight you, and to incline to peace if the other side inclines to peace.

Also, the opinion of a lot of scholars, even ones in the past, is that disbelievers refers to those who disbelieve guidance that has become clear to them, while doesn't refer to those who don't know it's true.

Thus a believer is also one who follows guidance of God that has come to them, and that as different individually, and can include Atheists.

I go on and off faith in Islam. Today I believe more in Islam then not, so I say this sincerely...I don't think Islam teaches to disrespect people or to hate people or to fight people of other faiths.

If it taught that, I would no longer think about the religion and wouldn't be going faith one day and then disbelief for a week, then faith one day then disbelief for a week thing I been going through.

But i will never agree with the sharia of god. using death penalties for quitting the religion or stoning people to death for adultery, you can say whatever you want and say there are conditions like there must be 4 witnesses according to the 'crime' or the accused one can make his choice to be stoned or not and if he does he will not have to repend and be in troubles on the day off judgement. But those are barbarric teachings and it proves islam is all about a fear-based doctrine. You can find those punishments back in the hadiths of bukkhari which are authentic. And muslims will always answer that our system in the west is not better because we're allowed to buy alcohol and and the youth goes clubbing and there is alot fornication..yeah so what? Alot of teenagers and young people go through this and it doesn't make them necesserely bad people in their later lifes. Sometimes the only person they harm is theirselves if there are teen pregnancies..(that still can be controlled) or accidents..but every society has its negative aspects. Like a converted muslim told me : " in some ways belgium were we live is a more islamic country than arabic countries..because for example our medical system, when someone has an accident or passes out in the streets, you will immediately be taken in charge".

[pocaracas]

[...]the hadiths of bukkhari which are authentic.

Define "authentic".

" in some ways belgium were we live is a more islamic country than arabic countries..because for example our medical system, when someone has an accident or passes out in the streets, you will immediately be taken in charge".

Let me get this straight... Belgium is more islamic because, if you have a health problem, you're taken to a hospital? Whereas, in an arabic country you'll be left for dead, huh?
And that is being islamic?
I thought that was being socialist.

[Iloveporc]

[...]the hadiths of bukkhari which are authentic.

Define "authentic".

" in some ways belgium were we live is a more islamic country than arabic countries..because for example our medical system, when someone has an accident or passes out in the streets, you will immediately be taken in charge".

Let me get this straight... Belgium is more islamic because, if you have a health problem, you're taken to a hospital? Whereas, in an arabic country you'll be left for dead, huh?
And that is being islamic?
I thought that was being socialist.

According to the muslims they are more authentic in the way that those hadiths are the most trustable ones..and the others are weaker or even possibly have been made up.

And yeah i have to admit the medical system example was quiete dumb. But i did understand the message he was trying to give..the positive sides of religion are more applied in our country than the muslim countries. Islam has failed to spread and apply his message correctly..thats what i was trying to say