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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 7:34 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 7:47 pm by Simon Moon.)
(January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: You need a better study of scriptures, God wants only those who love Him to be with Him for eternity, this life is given us to decide if that's what we want, I do and can't understand why everyone wouldn't want the same.
Forget what scriptures say for just a minute.
I am still asking, why couldn't he create souls that already love him and want to be with him?
Why would he go through game of creating a universe that lasts a minuscule amount of time (when compared to God's eternity) just to filter souls?
(January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: God is giving everyone the chance to love Him and spend eternity with Him. He does not desire to have a bunch of puppets hanging around, pulling strings isn't love from either side, even though He knows not everyone will choose to spend eternity with Him He still desires none to be lost. It's that love He has extended to all, if accepted.
Doesn't God have a plan? Doesn't everything that happens (including my disbelief in his existence) happen according to God's plan?
If so, wouldn't my disbelief in his existence be part of God's plan? If not, then things happen that are not according to God's plan. If so, then God is not omniscient.
(January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: He didn't need us or the universe, He was already living an eternal life (no beginning), God created because it was His pleasure and He created what pleased Him, because it was His desire.
A perfect being would not need external things for his pleasure. If he did, he would not be a perfect being. That would mean something is missing in his existence. If something is missing from his existence, by definition, he is not a perfect being.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 7:35 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 7:39 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(January 8, 2015 at 3:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: To my fellow Christians why do you try and explain God through the only process these people will accept, when you know that God doesn't accept their way of, as they put it, "we need absolute proof of God," thinking. I do not accept Rob's criteria for testability; however, it was Paul who said that all of nature testifies to the glory of God. And as part of our witness, we must always be "ready to give an account". That includes some of re-presenting important proofs, like those of Aquinas that helped bring me to faith. Even if it is the Holy Spirit that must ultimately reach their hearts, it is still our job to prepare the soil.
(January 8, 2015 at 3:48 pm)robvalue Wrote: No one has even tried to define what the fuck a "God" is. You might try the Summa Theologica by Aquinas. He gives a pretty comprehensive explanation of God.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 7:41 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 7:42 pm by Silver.)
(January 8, 2015 at 7:35 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I do not accept Rob's criteria for testability; however, it was Paul who said that all of nature testifies to the glory of God.
Paul was as sentimental and as ignorant as theists are made.
(January 8, 2015 at 7:35 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: That includes some of re-presenting important proofs, like those of Aquinas that helped bring me to faith.
I already provided THIS POST that discounts Aquinas, despite your claim that he is infallible.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 7:49 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 8:09 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(January 8, 2015 at 4:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: Are you so dense that you can't understand those in heaven will desire it. I really don't see this as a good response. Scripture says that he will wipe the tears from our eyes, but I hope that doesn't mean imposing a kind of willful ignorance on the blessed. I think the better response is this: In heaven we will have command of all the facts, see that the torment of the damned is just, and rejoice in the Lord because he is just.
(January 8, 2015 at 7:41 pm)Sionnach Wrote: I already provided THIS POST that discounts Aquinas, despite your claim that he is infallible. Riiiiggghhht...linking to someone ignorant doesn't make you smart. For example, his 'refutation' of the Argument from Motion is oblivious to the fact that the modern equivalent for the Aristotelian term 'motion' is change. Sorry but his refutations are useless because they don't even understand the arguments.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 8:09 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 8:16 pm by Nope.)
(January 8, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Sionnach Wrote: (January 8, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Godschild Wrote: All my memories of my grandmothers are happy, except for their deaths and when I see them in heaven their deaths will mean nothing and I'll have all those wonderful memories of them and most all my family.
If theists realized the sole purpose of religion was to delude one into believing that something exists beyond death, then they would not be theists anymore.
I have unhappy memories from my childhood and adolescence. Not only was a socially awkward, very shy, bookish kid but my mother was very mentally and verbally abusive. I suspect that my mother had some sort of undiagnosed personality disorder. A psychologists that I saw once told me that my mother sounded like a sociopath but I suspect Mom had borderline personality disorder. There are memories with my grandmother that aren't pleasant, not because Nan was doing anything wrong but the circumstances surrounding those memories are bad. Still, I would not want to lose those memories because they made me who I am and part of why I loved Nan so much is because she showed so much strength and kindness toward me.
I do not want to go to a place of constant joy if it means that I lose myself or forget why Nan was important to me in the first place
Now that I have the attention of the theists here, why aren't any of you answering my questions on theocracy in the religion section? None of my questions are any more difficult then this thread. You can even skip questions. I asked several. Don't answer on this thread because I don't want to hijack Robo's thread.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 9:13 pm
Do you guys not understand what I tell you or do you forget?
Only God can provide proof of God. He has offered such proof to anyone who will humble himself enought to A/S/K.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 9:16 pm
(January 8, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Drich Wrote: Do you guys not understand what I tell you or do you forget?
Only God can provide proof of God. He has offered such proof to anyone who will humble himself enought to A/S/K.
We read the illogical bull you post.
Only god can provide proof of god. I am willing to accept this, provided it is real proof whereby I do not have to forego with rationality and reality for a very silly concept referred to as faith.
And shove your A/S/K up your ass.
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 8, 2015 at 9:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 8, 2015 at 9:21 pm by IATIA.)
(January 8, 2015 at 10:32 am)robvalue Wrote: ... because we would have to throw out everything we think we know already just to consider this new claim. The reason for throwing out any conventional theory would have to be included to make this consistent. The problem is, that is exactly what they do and the reasoning is, "Because god said so and that is in the bible that god wrote.".
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 9, 2015 at 2:59 am
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2015 at 3:08 am by robvalue.)
Chad: I do believe other people have conciousness, but I'm far from convinced anything I see is real. I assume, as a matter of practical necessity, that they do. This is the problem of hard solipsism which can never be addressed, but it's useless to any further argument. You're right, it is unfalsifiable, but we have no choice but to accept the minimum amount of assumptions in order to function. Even if other people don't really exist or have conciousness, it doesn't make any difference to me, I will treat them as best I can because I won't take the risk. Also it makes me happy to treat them well. (Minimum assumptions: what I experience is in some way representative of a reality, and that I can learn about and affect that reality. No need to throw in a God here.)
Sure, testimony can be used for research, but all it can tell you is what people believe is true. It doesn't tell you whether what they believe is actually true.
If I have to accept anyone's testimony as accurate and everything they say is true, then that just makes me gullible, nothing more. I accept that they believe what they are saying, but for me to be convinced I need evidence. Who would be prepared to believe as true anything I said? Let's see, I just met God. He says Hindu is the correct religion. Do you believe me? If so, why would you discount my eye witness, first hand testimony of an actual meeting with God?
I tried to look at that Aqua thing, but I see no coherent definition of what God is. If you could give me the action def then that would be helpful. I'm not interested in what he has done, I want to know what he actually is.
The nearest we have got to a definition in this thread is, "A supernatural being that..." And I asked what a supernatural being is. I don't seem to have a response. What is a supernatural being?
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RE: Can you make a God claim?
January 9, 2015 at 3:15 am
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2015 at 3:39 am by Godscreated.)
(January 8, 2015 at 7:34 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: You need a better study of scriptures, God wants only those who love Him to be with Him for eternity, this life is given us to decide if that's what we want, I do and can't understand why everyone wouldn't want the same.
Forget what scriptures say for just a minute.
I am still asking, why couldn't he create souls that already love him and want to be with him?
I'm still saying choice, God wants only those who will freely choose Him, creating man preprogrammed would be like expecting love from a computer.
Quote:Why would he go through game of creating a universe that lasts a minuscule amount of time (when compared to God's eternity) just to filter souls?
He wasn't playing a game. He created the universe perfect to last forever, then the change, because of the sin of selfishness Adam and Eve committed. The sin stamped the creation with an end, it lost it's perfection, it became defiled, this is unacceptable to God, it is why Christ came, to restore man to God so he could live in a new and perfect creation.
(January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: God is giving everyone the chance to love Him and spend eternity with Him. He does not desire to have a bunch of puppets hanging around, pulling strings isn't love from either side, even though He knows not everyone will choose to spend eternity with Him He still desires none to be lost. It's that love He has extended to all, if accepted.
Quote:Doesn't God have a plan? Doesn't everything that happens (including my disbelief in his existence) happen according to God's plan?
Yes, He has a plan, that plan is to give everyone a chance at redemption and that redemption could only come through Christ. Your disbelief isn't part of His plan, it's a choice you've made that goes against His desire.
Quote:If so, wouldn't my disbelief in his existence be part of God's plan? If not, then things happen that are not according to God's plan. If so, then God is not omniscient.
Like I said above, no. God's plan isn't predicated on your choices, you being able to freely choose is His plan, either way you choose is within God's plan. God is omniscient.
(January 8, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: He didn't need us or the universe, He was already living an eternal life (no beginning), God created because it was His pleasure and He created what pleased Him, because it was His desire.
Quote:A perfect being would not need external things for his pleasure. If he did, he would not be a perfect being. That would mean something is missing in his existence. If something is missing from his existence, by definition, he is not a perfect being.
I did not say He needed to create, He did it to please himself, the omniscient God chose to do what He desired. A desire by necessity is not a need nor a requirement. It is what it is, a choice and our perfect and omniscient God chose. You are trying to define something that no man has ever experienced, perfection for us it's an idea for God it's reality.
GC
(January 8, 2015 at 7:35 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (January 8, 2015 at 3:47 pm)Godschild Wrote: To my fellow Christians why do you try and explain God through the only process these people will accept, when you know that God doesn't accept their way of, as they put it, "we need absolute proof of God," thinking. I do not accept Rob's criteria for testability; however, it was Paul who said that all of nature testifies to the glory of God. And as part of our witness, we must always be "ready to give an account". That includes some of re-presenting important proofs, like those of Aquinas that helped bring me to faith. Even if it is the Holy Spirit that must ultimately reach their hearts, it is still our job to prepare the soil.
I understand and thought I was clear about we are to give a response to them for our belief, but to offer absolute proof only God can do that when we accept Him.
GC
(January 8, 2015 at 7:49 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: (January 8, 2015 at 4:39 pm)Godschild Wrote: Are you so dense that you can't understand those in heaven will desire it. I really don't see this as a good response. Scripture says that he will wipe the tears from our eyes, but I hope that doesn't mean imposing a kind of willful ignorance on the blessed. I think the better response is this: In heaven we will have command of all the facts, see that the torment of the damned is just, and rejoice in the Lord because he is just.
I agree with what you are saying, however I do not believe we will have the memories of those we love who will be in hell, even though we will understand His justice and agree with it, I can't see how that would lessen the pain of losing loved ones.
GC
(January 8, 2015 at 8:09 pm)Nope Wrote: I have unhappy memories from my childhood and adolescence. Not only was a socially awkward, very shy, bookish kid but my mother was very mentally and verbally abusive. I suspect that my mother had some sort of undiagnosed personality disorder. A psychologists that I saw once told me that my mother sounded like a sociopath but I suspect Mom had borderline personality disorder. There are memories with my grandmother that aren't pleasant, not because Nan was doing anything wrong but the circumstances surrounding those memories are bad. Still, I would not want to lose those memories because they made me who I am and part of why I loved Nan so much is because she showed so much strength and kindness toward me.
I do not want to go to a place of constant joy if it means that I lose myself or forget why Nan was important to me in the first place.
I can't say exactly how the all powerful omniscient God will accomplish this with each one, but I do have the faith He will, this I'm sure of because of who He is. I'm so glad your Nan was there for you and I'm sure God looked down through the ages and saw your need and provided for you, with a wonderful believing lady. Please remember none of us had perfect lives and many much worse than your's or mine.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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