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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 2:30 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 2:32 pm by robvalue.)
Sure. It's easy for me to speculate about this from my armchair. It's not like I'd go ahead and actually do this without way more consideration. Just calling it as I see it, if I'm running the place I have a duty to protect everyone.
And again, only for airtight cases. Where there is no doubt.
In Britain murderers get let out. And I don't think that's right. If it was always actual life, that would be different.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 2:31 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 2:32 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
Gotta like any Airplane reference.
(March 4, 2015 at 2:30 pm)robvalue Wrote: Sure. It's easy for me to speculate about this from my armchair. It's not like I'd go ahead and actually do this without way more consideration. Just calling it as I see it, if I'm running the place I have a duty to protect everyone.
And again, only for airtight cases. Where there is no doubt.
In Britain murderers get let out. And I don't think that's right.
Well, I agree with you there, that ain't right. Convicted murderers ought to get life without parole, in my book -- and that would be spent on work farms, not in prison dayrooms.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 2:37 pm
That would certainly be a much better alternative to both. Put murders to work for the community.
I may be a bit naive, but the prison system in England seems like a bit of a joke.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 2:53 pm
(This post was last modified: March 4, 2015 at 3:07 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(March 4, 2015 at 2:22 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Let's not forget that when fighting monsters, one must take care not to become a monster as well. Murdering murderers is still immoral.
The immediate purpose of fighting monsters is not to make sure there are no monsters in the world. It is to be seen and take credit for fighting monsters, and to make sure there are no monsters that are not under your control. .
(March 4, 2015 at 1:48 pm)robvalue Wrote: The thing about the death penalty is you have to weigh up all the problems with not executing airtight murder cases:
1) If they are released or they escape, needless innocents may die.
2) The tax payer has to fund them being kept alive.
3) The prisons are fuller so that there's less room for other crimes and sentences end up being reduced artificially.
4) Another reason probably. Not at my best today.
I know it's far from clear cut, but I come down slightly on the side of the DP not as punishment, but to protect society from those who have proven unsafe to ever be in it.
The thing about not executing airtight murder cases is you lose the blood thirsty votes.
The thirst for blood is far more common beneath the veneer and far easier to draw out onto the surface than you think.
This is the same in Indonesia as in Texas, same in Texas as in China. In China the blood thirsty either don't get a vote, or don't need to vote. But the government still fears what would happen if they are not satiated.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 5:14 pm
By the way, as a side note, I remember how Hillary Clinton once went to Indonesia and praised the country as a prime example of how Democracy and Islam are perfectly compatible with one another. I don't remember her exact words but it was along the smug lines of "those who say Islam is tyrannical, just look at Indonesia."
Indonesia does seem to be among the most relatively progressive examples the world can offer of a majority Muslim country coexisting with the concept of a free society (emphasis on the word "relatively"). This country and Turkey are the only examples I can readily think of at all.
That Indonesia is upheld not just as a good example but a shining city on a hill to show the rest of the world the best possible scenario tells us all we need to know about Islam.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 5:33 pm
(March 4, 2015 at 2:37 pm)robvalue Wrote: I may be a bit naive, but the prison system in England seems like a bit of a joke.
I know nothing of your prison system, but I can't imagine it being anywhere near as bad as ours. Calling it a joke would be fitting except for the seriousness of its flaws. Despite our relatively meager population, we house 1/4th of the world's prisoners.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 4, 2015 at 5:47 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 9:11 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's too bad, I bet the isle of Flores would be an amazing place to get high. It is an outrage though, I highly doubt that their legal system is all that through. Who's to say that they are even guilty?
That sound like even more of an argument not to get involved with drugs whilst over there in any way whatsoever.
MM
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 5, 2015 at 1:03 pm
I've been giving this some thought, and I've come round to the idea that putting murderers to work for the community is probably a better idea than execution. Well, putting all criminals to work I guess. Why should they get to lounge around?
The problems I see with doing this for murderers are:
1) Risk to the public
2) What action is taken if they refuse to work properly / at all
I guess for the second point, we have solitary confinement or something.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 5, 2015 at 5:33 pm
Everyone keeps elevating murderers as some distinctly different type of human being.
Much murder comes from very common people.
From an axiomatic point of view, I've yet to hear rebuttals to the following:
1. Enslaving convicts to work creates a perverse economic incentive to incarcerate more, for any reason.
2. Executing people for crimes other than murder creates a perverse economic incentive to escalate to murder.
3. Avoiding any form of rehabilitation and allowing indefinite prejudice against convicts creates a perverse economic incentive to continue criminal behavior.
It's my opinion that 1 through 3 contribute to an unjust prison and justice system. With that in mind, the death penalty seems misapplied.
Therefore, Indonesia, in this case, is crap. To hell with them.
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RE: Indonesia to execute six drug offenders
March 5, 2015 at 5:35 pm
(This post was last modified: March 5, 2015 at 5:36 pm by Autumnlicious.)
(March 5, 2015 at 1:03 pm)robvalue Wrote: I guess for the second point, we have solitary confinement or something.
Long term Solitary Confinement causes intense physical and mental harm, harm which has yet to be treatable and possibly never can be solved.
It is tantamount to torture.
Yet you advocate that.
Shows how little you know and why letting the general public discuss anything is a waste of time.
"For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong" comes to mind as a quote.
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