Hell and the Play Nice Christian

[Chad32]

If your god really did make a pit of fire to send everyone he didn't like to be tortured for eternity, there's nothing respectable about him.

There will be an eternity of torment, not from God, but from the individuals that are there, they torment their own selves, this is how the sins of each will have there own consequences. This is how the torment of some will be far worse than others, they suffer because of what they have done individually. those in hell will be their own torment, God has nothing to do with that part, it's the individuals doing, crazy but fits the scriptures. You don't like it take it to God.

GC

So no worse than living on Earth.

I'd like to consult Yahweh/Jesus on a ton of stuff, but he never showed up.

[Simon Moon]

So, there will still be torture just not the forever kind?

That's how I interpret it.

So, then what is the big deal with going there?

After all, any limited time one spends in torture, no matter how long, is literally nothing when compared to eternity.

Lets say one spends 10 million years in temporary torture. Compared to, lets say, 500 billion years, that is like about 10 hours out of a year. And 500 billion years is even less time compared to eternity.

At some time along the way to eternity, it will seem like fractions of a second. At some time after that, it diminish into nothingness,

[Thumpalumpacus]

You're goddamned straight I've got no respect for the object of your fetish.

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The very same verse you're referencing has Jesus calling hell "the eternal fire". That's a mighty fine cherry-picker you've got there.

Aren't you worried about directly contradicting the god you claim to worship?

Lek / Parkers Tan
From what I understand the lake of fire burns up the
"devil beast and false prophet"
(Satan/Antichrist/FalseProphet, opposite of Holy Trinity)
so by removing those influences, the souls are saved.

Man is made in the image of god
body/mind/spirit as a microcosm or reflection
of God/Christ/HolySpirit

So that part is pure and eternal, and it's the corruption
that is removed and burned away "cast into the lake of fire"

Disclaimer: Of course, I was told I am going to hell for teaching that all souls can be saved. So only listen to this interpretation if you are okay with whatever consequences result from this interpretation.

That is clearly contrary to what Jesus says in that verse. Now ou may or may not be a Christian, but Lek says he is, and I'd like to hear him justify his overturning of his own lord's words.

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Aren't you worried about directly contradicting the god you claim to worship?

Hm. Technically it would seem that a fire being eternal doesn't necessarily mean the people in it will be there forever.

For what it's worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

Yeah, the Bible is not very clear on the matter. But I'd imagine that "eternal" applies to the punishment as well as the flames, for the simple reason that if the punishment isn't eternal, the length of time the flames last to the sufferer is irrelevant. If I say the plane flew eight thousand miles, do I need to add that the passengers did as well?

[Simon Moon]

I'm loving that we have 2 people, LEK and Godschild, both call themselves 'Christians', both get their beliefs from the same texts, both believe in the same deity, yet they both have differing views of one of the most important tenets of their religion.


Doesn't this say a lot about the god that created their text, the most important document in the history of the universe (according to them), so badly that no 2 believers get the same message?

[Thumpalumpacus]

You don't like it take it to God.

GC

Was your god surprised that humans invented sin?

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People do not have to choose hell, they have to unchoose it so to speak.

Yes, because setting the default to eternal torment for the human nature that he instilled in us is good, in your eyes.

You believe that eternal torment is acceptable punishment for the human nature you assert god gave us.

[emilynghiem]

I'm loving that we have 2 people, LEK and Godschild, both call themselves 'Christians', both get their beliefs from the same texts, both believe in the same deity, yet they both have differing views of one of the most important tenets of their religion.


Doesn't this say a lot about the god that created their text, the most important document in the history of the universe (according to them), so badly that no 2 believers get the same message?

Simple:
by God's law, you get the justice you give.
So if you believe in judgment and punishment, then you get that.
If you believe in forgiveness and correction, then you get that.

both paths exist. retributive justice and restorative justice.
And the point of life is to learn the difference, by experiencing
the cause and effect, how you reap what you sow. And you
are judged by how you judge others, or you are forgiven
by how you forgive others. Either way, Justice is served!

[Simon Moon]

I'm loving that we have 2 people, LEK and Godschild, both call themselves 'Christians', both get their beliefs from the same texts, both believe in the same deity, yet they both have differing views of one of the most important tenets of their religion.


Doesn't this say a lot about the god that created their text, the most important document in the history of the universe (according to them), so badly that no 2 believers get the same message?

Simple:
by God's law, you get the justice you give.
So if you believe in judgment and punishment, then you get that.
If you believe in forgiveness and correction, then you get that.

both paths exist. retributive justice and restorative justice.
And the point of life is to learn the difference, by experiencing
the cause and effect, how you reap what you sow. And you
are judged by how you judge others, or you are forgiven
by how you forgive others. Either way, Justice is served!

Do you have any demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument that any of that is true?


Because to me, that sounds an awful lot like a bunch of unsupported assertions.

[ether-ore]

Welcome, again, ether.

So what is your evidence for this spirit prison/paradise?

Sorry for not responding sooner. I just realized that subscriptions to threads aren't automatic. So I had to go and subscribe.

About your question: There probably isn't any that you would accept because it is related to scripture. I'm sure that would look like circular reasoning to you.

But, the way I look at is that the men who wrote the scriptures were eye witnesses, and the coherence over time of all their testimonies is something I'm willing to accept as valid evidence.

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How many thousands of denominations are there?

The number I often see quoted here and elsewhere is 40,000 christian denominations

Don't know. That number was intended to suggest that there are many. the exact number is unknown to me.

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That's not as bad as the bulk of Christianity but still has a few fatal flaws:

The idea that someone must suffer for transgressions is very primitive. The need for revenge is a base emotion that can be overcome with intellect. If we can do it, obviously God can do it.

Since God is omniscient and creates everything, evil is all on him. You can argue free-will all you want but it doesn't matter. When God creates someone and gives him or her free-will, God knows exactly what he/she is going to do with it. Why create someone when you know that person is going to do evil?

If anyone deserves any amount of punishment, it's God.
[

Here's my understanding: You and I and everyone who ever lived or will live on this earth, are eternal beings. Meaning that there is an aspect of us that had no beginning... that we, our essence (if you will) was not created by God. We just always were. In LDS parlance, this entity is referred to an "intelligence". This is a name and a property for that entity. Because of this, we have agency. We have always had agency. Agency was not given us by God, He just didn't take it from us. While these intelligences had choice, they were otherwise limited as to what they could actually do.

God offered these intelligences an opportunity to progress by making them His spirit children. We accepted and continued to progress and learn until one day (so to speak) we were offered another opportunity to come to earth and gain physical bodies. So this life is just another step in our progression. But this life is also a test to see if we will obey God's laws as reveled to us by His prophets. Depending on what we choose to do relative to those commandments; will determine how far we can continue to progress after this life.

God does know what His children will do under certain circumstances, but that is not a determining factor. We do have choice. We make choices everyday. I argue in favor of free will because it is in our very nature; it is in our essence, that part of us that was not created by God.

[YGninja]

To be eternally, consciously tortured, you need to have eternal life. Is eternal life biblical for sinners? If non believers have eternal life in hell, and believers eternal life in heaven, then eternal life is assured, it would only be where that is the question.
So with that in mind, try and make sense of these verses.


John 3:16""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:36""He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14""...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54""He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 10:28""and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21""so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23""For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Titus 3:7""so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 3:15""Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

Hebrews 10:26-27""If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Psalms 9:5""You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever."

Matthew 10:28""Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

THe doctrine of eternal torture is not biblical. You will only find a couple of verses from Revelations that appear to support this doctrine, and Revelations is infamous for being difficult to understand.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm loving that we have 2 people, LEK and Godschild, both call themselves 'Christians', both get their beliefs from the same texts, both believe in the same deity, yet they both have differing views of one of the most important tenets of their religion.


Doesn't this say a lot about the god that created their text, the most important document in the history of the universe (according to them), so badly that no 2 believers get the same message?

Yes -- cherry-picking. On all sides.

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THe doctrine of eternal torture is not biblical. You will only find a couple of verses from Revelations that appear to support this doctrine, and Revelations is infamous for being difficult to understand.

Matthew 18:8, linked above. Explain it.