Hate the belief, not the believer

[robvalue]

Fuck yes! It's one of the big reasons I engage in debates. To try and help christian out. I never expect any kind of on the spot conversion, but if I could encourage just a little bit of reflection, which may eventually lead to an honest evaluation of beliefs, it would be amazing. I see invisible cages around every single one, and I would just love to see them freed. I don't hate the christians (unless they're doing something really horrible at the time). I want ultimately to save them, but at least to engage in honest debate.

[Brian37]

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."

Who's judging, I was trying to help with a little advise, hate can become a crippling thing so why do it.

Yet on nearly every post I see of yours, this is exactly what you are doing. Where in his post does he even appear to be hateful?

You do this a lot, seems to me to be a little projection. You come onto an atheist forum, as a christian, and because shock horror, they question your beliefs......, on said atheists forum, you accuse them of being full of hate.

Hey, read all the post before showing your ignorance. I've had people to tell me they hate me, yes members of this forum, if you do not care to believe this fine. Many atheist here have stated they hate the Christian belief, I do not remember if you have, but it wouldn't surprise me if you have.

Being able to quote chapter and verse does not translate to understanding, it seems to me you have completely lost your books message.

That's because it convicts you whether you want to admit it or not, sorry if it does, no I'm not,

that's exactly the effect the scriptures should have on the guilty and all are guilty.

GC
[/quote]

"Hate" in what context? Why should I love claims that are scientifically absurd? Why should I love it when humans pick up holy books of any label and justify bigotry, homophobia, and treat women like property? I do hate that so don't expect me to lie to you or myself.

But that is not the same "hate" those above have which is ignorance and selfish narcissism.

Again, my "hate" isn't "I want to murder everyone who makes claims I don't like". My "hate" is knowing my species is capable of better logic and hating that bad use of logic enough to care to say something. Much like if you had a co worker who had body oder and didn't have a good sense of smell. You'd hate that smell enough to say something.

So yea I do "hate", but it is not the same "hate" that is used by violent people who are simply ignorant. Just like I am sure Galileo hated the fact that people thought the sun rotated around the earth. The real hate was by the society that condemned him for caring enough to tell them a harsh truth they didn't want to face.

[watchamadoodle]

@Losty, have you tried psychotherapy? Sometimes it helps me.

On the question "hate the belief, not the believer", I don't know. People who claim to share a belief often behave differently. That would suggest "hate the believer, not the belief". Or you could focus on actions. Prevent harmful actions through education, deterrence, etc?

[Godscreated]

Well, luckily we can discuss GC and his issues with atheists and just forget my OP. I probably over shared anyways.

No you haven't, this was to be your post, all I did was try and give a little advice and meant to do anything more. These yahoos always have to jump in and make things I say to be something they dislike and if they can't do so they will criticize my spelling or grammar, anything to get a punch in, I'll apologize for them. they would rather try and bring out all the negative about me and disregard the OP all the time. They're insensitive twits who need to grow up, they can not leave well enough alone. I apologize to you for even answering these inconsiderate butts. Yes I'm upset, why, because they always think more about their self promotion than the needs of others, Losty just watch and see all their negative responses to this instead of doing the right thing and apologize to you. Again I'm sorry and maybe the next time you post something I'll have enough sense to give advice through a PM.

Love, GC

[Brian37]

Well, luckily we can discuss GC and his issues with atheists and just forget my OP. I probably over shared anyways.

No you haven't, this was to be your post, all I did was try and give a little advice and meant to do anything more. These yahoos always have to jump in and make things I say to be something they dislike and if they can't do so they will criticize my spelling or grammar, anything to get a punch in, I'll apologize for them. they would rather try and bring out all the negative about me and disregard the OP all the time. They're insensitive twits who need to grow up, they can not leave well enough alone. I apologize to you for even answering these inconsiderate butts. Yes I'm upset, why, because they always think more about their self promotion than the needs of others, Losty just watch and see all their negative responses to this instead of doing the right thing and apologize to you. Again I'm sorry and maybe the next time you post something I'll have enough sense to give advice through a PM.

Love, GC

No we do not control you, we have no physical way of controlling your emotions, only you control your emotions. Now having been bullied as a kid, it would be stupid for you to assume that means others cannot affect your responses. What you can do is be aware of how you react yourself and that helps you deal with others better.

No one brings out the bad in you. You allow yourself to get worked up. We all get worked up at points in our lives over a multitude of issues. Your reaction is a human behavior. But only you control how you respond to others.

[The Valkyrie]

In all honesty, it depends on the believer.

I dislike religions, in particular the Abrahamic ones. I also prefer to judge people on an individual basis.

There are some believers who are really great people. Then there are believers who are just so arrogant, so dishonest, so vile that I loathe them.

Would they be vile and dishonest without their religion? probably.

But would they still be so fucking arrogant without it? In many cases I've encountered, probably not.

[robvalue]

You're right, I have noticed a distinct split between gullible/misguided people and smug, arrogant dishonest people. I feel much more sympathy for the first kind.

[Brian37]

In all honesty, it depends on the believer.

I dislike religions, in particular the Abrahamic ones. I also prefer to judge people on an individual basis.

There are some believers who are really great people. Then there are believers who are just so arrogant, so dishonest, so vile that I loathe them.

Would they be vile and dishonest without their religion? probably.

But would they still be so fucking arrogant without it? In many cases I've encountered, probably not.

Unfortunately religion as a human invented construct, it isn't set up to value the individual very well. At best the "be kind" motif it sells is dependent on the minorities to know their place. But the gods of Abraham most certainly do not define our modern pluralistic societies. At best the this god "allows" a puppet government but is still the final lawgiver. You cannot impeach this god, or vote him out of office and elect another god. And while you can grovel in prayer to such a being it is still his whim as to what favor if any he gives you. You have no say in how the game is set up nor does he need your consent in the rules or final outcome.

That does not change my agreement that the individual is what the priority is as to how I asses my judgment of them. This is merely an indictment of the idea that religion is a good way to view others.

[Homeless Nutter]

Well, luckily we can discuss GC and his issues with atheists and just forget my OP. I probably over shared anyways.

But... But he is so adorable... Like an angry puppy. Or a panda. More of a panda, because he seems like an emo... Can Christians be emos?...

Sorry - what were we talking about?

[Godscreated]

Why not have a discussion with them about how they make you feel they may not be aware of how you feel.

GC

I can't get into details. This is all from a purely emotional stand point as I have zero contact with these people now. Somehow they still find ways to hurt me from a distance.

Again Losty I'm sorry for the way things went and yes I got mad at the others. Even after you posted they keep right on going not paying any attention to what you said, it just made me really mad.

I do not need details nor should you have to say things you do not want to. However it's hard to suggest something when one doesn't understand the situation. I know that family especially can say thing that come across as cruel and they do not mean to, I'm not saying they have done this, for all I know they could have done much worse.
One thing I would say is cut off the ways they do find to get at you. If you can't ignore them.

These are people who have known me my entire life. Family. They have endangered my life and the lives of my children. They are a threat to us themselves. They've kind of been a threat to me my whole life.

If they are threatening you the law should be used, family or not they can't threaten you with harm it's against the law, I know sometimes you can't get far enough away from the threats to ever feel safe and I hope that's not your case.

But let's say I could sit down and discuss with them. How do you tell a person what they're doin hurts you when what they're doing is telling you the abuse you suffer is a result of your not being a good enough Christian,

That's hard to do, especially if they want listen and especially if they believe they haven't done anything wrong in their service to God. Christians at times have a hard time understanding troubles in another's life, they listen little and speak to much, even if they mean well. Let me say this, God want us people to harm you to get you to return to Him, He doesn't work that way. Being physically harmed by someone is evil on their part and not a Christian way.

trying to use your kids as leverage for blackmail to convince you to stay with a husband who has tried to kill you, tried to take your kids on several occasions, given your personal information to your exhusband, tried to find you even after you left and changed your number? These things hurt me, but I shouldn't have to tell them. It should be obvious.

Your right you shouldn't have to say anything to them, you should however say something to the law, it's there to protect you and your children.

I am just lost somewhere inside my mind struggling against my loving forgiving nature that tells me I am wrong for blaming them.

If you are not guilty of anything in this then quit blaming yourself, that's what it looks like you're doing. Don't hate them though, it will only make things worse for you, you can hate their actions and not feel guilty. Forgiving them will make you feel better inside and that's the peace you need and hate will only cloud the peace you need.

My conscious tells me it's not their fault and I should love them anyways. My brain tells me they're horrible people and I have every right to blame them because I was subjected to religion and abuse from a young age and I would never do this to anyone.

First of all you shouldn't have allow their actions to effect your beliefs you had, Christianity is a personal relationship with God and I assure you God's hand is not in the abuse you've endured. Evil is responsible for that and that evil comes within the people who are trying to control you. I see that Christian beliefs are still a part of your life and I believe that's good, but you need to put them in a correct order of use. You need to realize that there are times when your children and you are more important than feeling sorry for those who harm you. It's really hard to give any concrete statements, and I've not, because I do not know the entire situation. there's always two sides to a story, I've lived long enough to know this to be true, I've been involved in some situations for others to have learned this. So consider what I said as advice to be used only if it applies and ignored if it doesn't, wish I could help more, but without a face to face it's just extremely difficult. If there is some thing you can e-mail me, it's on my users page. I would say I'm praying for you situation, but I do not want to upset you farther, so I'll just say hope the best for you and am available if needed.

GC