The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[robvalue]

Also by the confirmation of the unholy spirit. That trumps all evidence. It's the essence of the universe, and the emotions it brings out in me can give me complete confidence that there are no gods or ghosts or cyber monkeys.

[Rekeisha]

How do you know this?

._.

by reading the dictionary. because that's what those words mean.

Sorry let me clarify how do you know there isn't something outside of the natural?

@Rob when i wrote to about your moral views i apologize for being to cutting.

[Longhorn]

._.

by reading the dictionary. because that's what those words mean.

Sorry let me clarify how do you know there isn't something outside of the natural?

Because. If something does exist, it is natural. Everything that exists is a part of the natural world. The natural world encompasses everything that exists. So by definition something outside the natural world would be something nonexistent.

If your god does exist, he is a party of nature. He cannot be outside it, because-by definition-it encompasses everything.

Again, that's what those words mean.

[IATIA]

I have repeated that same thought ad nauseum, but to no avail.

[Chad32]

RekeishaSorry that I didn't respond yesterday I didn't see this.

So are emotions, a person's character, thoughts, understanding, and ideas not real? Science can only study the brain but it can not physically grab hold of these things and study them. Are quarks real? No one has seen them.

I have said you can look at the bible but you have refused so the only reason it is untestable is because you will not test it.

You can't physically study me at my computer right now the only way you can know what I am thinking or what I would like is by reading my written words. God wrote His words down in a book and not just that if you submit to Him and repent form your sins you could even get to know what he is like because you have Him all wrong.

What if what the people think will make them healthy, wealthy and happy will no actually do that but the president. Then he proceeds to put that in action do you think the people will see him as a good leader?

There is the study of psychology, neuroscience, and other things that have to do with the mind. We can detect electrical impulses in the brain, understand why we feel many emotions, and see their effects. These things can be studied because we have physical brains to study.  We don't have a god on hand to study, any more than we have a leprechaun. As far as quarks go, they are conencted to hadrons which can be tested.

Test the bible? Ok. Can a body of water come together in space, with no apparent means to keep it in liquid form? No. Is the moon a source of light? No. Was grass and fruit bearing plants the first forms of plant-life? No. Can two individuals created a thriving and healthy species? No. There are things we know about how stars and planets form that don't fit with the way the bible describes the origin of the world and creatures within. The best explanation you have is magic, which can't be tested.

No, I can't study you from here. We could, however, meet up at a lab sometime and probably learn more things about our bodies and ourselves than we ever knew. The great thing about science is that anyone with the proper education and resources can double check anything a scientist says. That's why education is so important. I spent twenty years submitting myself to Jesus. They were fun years, but eventually i grew into my own person like most adults do. Someone with an idea of justice that doesn't mesh with the idea of scapegoating innocent people for my own actions. Or punishing people infinitely for finite crimes.

I'm not sure I understand that last part. "What if what people think will make them healthy, wealthy, and happy will no(t) actually do that but the president." Are you trying to say if there's just one person who knows how to make everyone happy, healthy, and wealthy? There isn't. That's what councils of representatives are for. The closer you get to one person, or a small group, having all the power, the more corrupt the society gets.

I will agree with you, you can study thought with science I was wrong. The reason you can do that is because you are in control. The reason you can't study God is because you don't control Him.
You can't prove my existence outside of science unless I agree to go where you want me to go or you come to me. I would have to submit to your wants or you would have to move towards me. God has made efforts to help you understand Him but you must come to Him. Also how do you know that your science is right in proving that  exist?
By what means are you using to test the Bible?
What do you mean when you say you submitted your life to Jesus?
By what means are you saying that system is corrupt?

A level of control doesn't have much to do with studying it. As long as you can observe something in a testable way, and show others, you can study it. People have been trying to study the bible, and the only result has been thousands of different denominations of the same religion. Some of which have killed over those interpretations.

I came as far as I could. I think you said he was patiently waiting for me to submit to him, but I have to know he's real before I can submit to him. I need to know he's real in a way that I can show other people indisputably, and we need to have some talks before I can willingly start worshiping him. If I would ever do that at all.

We test everything through science. Like I said, it's the best method we have. We study the universe, and the results we've found doesn't aree with the bible.

I mean that I was a Christian. I was raised that way, though we were liberal to moderate. not Fundies.

One sign that a system is corrupt is when the few are willing to let the majority suffer I the process of making themselves powerful. The whole reason people call Yahweh evil is that people who act like him are typically horrible people. They are not good for society at large.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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Interesting. Can you offer up any sort of scientific proof that one god (or any god for that matter) made the universe?



Horsehockey. I'll believe what science shows as true. I'll believe in him when there is clear-cut evidence in support of his existence. Show documented, scientific proof that the only reason for anyone's existence is because of some imaginary sky daddy.
 

Do you have any proof, outside of any biblical references, that you DO know god? Say, a video recording of you and him chatting it up?



Audio recording or it didn't happen.

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God is Supernatural and we have already discussed this.

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So are you a scientist? Do you do a study on your emotions to make sure that they are true? Do you study the world around you to make sure that it is real?
I have a relationship with God and have had one since I was 5. I didn't read the bible then and he told me about Himself that back up his word on the Bible.
Do you record all of your conversations? If you don't does that mean they are not real?

---

If God is supernatural who was posing as the God character in the Old Testament stories?  Some God character has a lot of dialogue yakking with a herd of crazy old coots.  And then there's the Jesus guy.

[Rekeisha]

Sorry let me clarify how do you know there isn't something outside of the natural?

Because. If something does exist, it is natural. Everything that exists is a part of the natural world. The natural world encompasses everything that exists. So by definition something outside the natural world would be something nonexistent.

If your god does exist, he is a party of nature. He cannot be outside it, because-by definition-it encompasses everything.

Again, that's what those words mean.

so since you read the definition in the dictionary that makes it so. Well the dictionary defines Supernatural: of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.  2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.

nature is defined as: based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature. 3. of or relating to nature or the universe:
None of these definitions says that the only things that do exist are natural.
So I want to know, since you are confined by nature, can possibly know that there is nothing outside of nature?

[Longhorn]

Because. If something does exist, it is natural. Everything that exists is a part of the natural world. The natural world encompasses everything that exists. So by definition something outside the natural world would be something nonexistent.

If your god does exist, he is a party of nature. He cannot be outside it, because-by definition-it encompasses everything.

Again, that's what those words mean.

so since you read the definition in the dictionary that makes it so. Well the dictionary defines Supernatural: of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.  2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.

nature is defined as: based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature. 3. of or relating to nature or the universe:
None of these definitions says that the only things that do exist are natural.
So I want to know, since you are confined by nature, can possibly know that there is nothing outside of nature?

because nature encompasses everything. if it exists, it's a part of nature.
there cannot be anything beyond everything, because it is within the everything

definition of nature, the meaning I have in mind is bolded:

nature
[ney-cher]
noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.
4.
natural scenery:
Tourists at the resort are surrounded by nature.
5.
the universe, with all its phenomena:
Conservation of energy is a universal law of nature.
6.
the sum total of the forces at work throughout the universe.
7.
reality, as distinguished from any effect of art:
a portrait true to nature.

so if it exists in the universe, it is natural.

that's just whst those words mean. Supernatural is doomed to be an empty set by its definition alone.

[Rekeisha]

I will agree with you, you can study thought with science I was wrong. The reason you can do that is because you are in control. The reason you can't study God is because you don't control Him.
You can't prove my existence outside of science unless I agree to go where you want me to go or you come to me. I would have to submit to your wants or you would have to move towards me. God has made efforts to help you understand Him but you must come to Him. Also how do you know that your science is right in proving that  exist?
By what means are you using to test the Bible?
What do you mean when you say you submitted your life to Jesus?
By what means are you saying that system is corrupt?

A level of control doesn't have much to do with studying it. As long as you can observe something in a testable way, and show others, you can study it. People have been trying to study the bible, and the only result has been thousands of different denominations of the same religion. Some of which have killed over those interpretations.

I came as far as I could. I think you said he was patiently waiting for me to submit to him, but I have to know he's real before I can submit to him. I need to know he's real in a way that I can show other people indisputably, and we need to have some talks before I can willingly start worshiping him. If I would ever do that at all.

We test everything through science. Like I said, it's the best method we have. We study the universe, and the results we've found doesn't aree with the bible.

I mean that I was a Christian. I was raised that way, though we were liberal to moderate. not Fundies.

One sign that a system is corrupt is when the few are willing to let the majority suffer I the process of making themselves powerful. The whole reason people call Yahweh evil is that people who act like him are typically horrible people. They are not good for society at large.

If you come at the bible as if it were just words in a book then you can study it all day and not be changed. If you believe it is the word of God and that you need to submit your life to God then your life will change. See a Christian is not one by just word or works but there must be and understanding of your sin/disobedience to God then you must turn from your ways and accept that Jesus died for your sins and accept the new life that is available to you. Once you do that you enter into a relationship with Him. A Christian  personally knows God and His ways give us peace. Our lives are no longer centered on ourselves and what we think to be right but on the Truth.

By your world view we are just a bunch of atoms and some chemical reactions so how can you say that it is wrong for a few people to have power how can you make any moral statements?

[Dragonetti]

Yes, we are all animals. We all have the same basic configuration. I bet you cannot take on an APE hand to hand combat!