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RE: Hostage to fear
July 20, 2015 at 8:43 pm
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2015 at 8:45 pm by Godscreated.
Edit Reason: misspell my e's and r's do not always type out.
)
(July 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm)Spacetime Wrote: Godschild Wrote:...unless you ask me questions.
I have some questions...
(July 20, 2015 at 6:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: I was only leaving an option open to Spacetime, and what turd are you talking about. the one that poisons your brain. Hell is the original place of punishment of coarse you would n't know that, yet.
GC
What option are you "leaving open" to me? How did you close all of the other options, and who gave you the authority to close all the other options?
I did not close any options they are there for your taking. I was not going to make a post and then cut you off, so I was leaving it up to you to come back and ask questions if you had them, so we might have a decent discussion if you had a question. You see if someone comes here it's okay that the atheist do all they can to influence someone, when Christians try to do the same we get bombarded from all sides to distract use from trying to help. So if you came here for a one sided help session you'll get it unless you ask questions of the Christians here. You see I understand how this place works and I was only offering help if you wanted it, nothing more, nothing less. If you have made more to my post than that I'm sorry you misunderstood what I meant, anyhow I've explained and if you have questions for me I will be around.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2015 at 9:24 pm by Spacetime.)
(July 20, 2015 at 8:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: I did not close any options they are there for your taking. I was not going to make a post and then cut you off, so I was leaving it up to you to come back and ask questions if you had them, so we might have a decent discussion if you had a question. You see if someone comes here it's okay that the atheist do all they can to influence someone, when Christians try to do the same we get bombarded from all sides to distract use from trying to help. So if you came here for a one sided help session you'll get it unless you ask questions of the Christians here. You see I understand how this place works and I was only offering help if you wanted it, nothing more, nothing less. If you have made more to my post than that I'm sorry you misunderstood what I meant, anyhow I've explained and if you have questions for me I will be around.
GC
Cool. An unbiased theist. In that case, I have loads of sincere questions.
1) The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.
2) If scripture says that I can know the difference between good and evil, and I believe that the god of scripture is evil... why should I worship this god?
3) If scripture is god-breathed and right for teaching, why does it conclude that the Earth is 6,000 years old, which would put the creation of man in the middle of the height of Egyptian pyramid-building?
4) Why does god let thousands of toddlers die every day of starvation?
5) How do you square the holocaust? If god is all good and powerful, and was everywhere during the holocaust, why did he not intervene?
6) I prayed that my boss's niece (6 years old) would not die of cancer... but she did. Was it god that destroyed her family's lives by not answering their prayers or was it because Eve did an evil thing before she knew what evil was?
7) How can the Christian church deny marriage to someone with klinefelter syndrome? Who decides what gender he or she is? Does god hate people with klinefelter syndrome who marry? Will they go to hell for marrying despite having two genders?
8) Who is Enoch and what made him good in god's eyes?
9) What made rahab righteous?
10) What is your answer to the euthyphro dilemma?
I know that's a lot, but any effort is appreciated!
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 20, 2015 at 9:34 pm
(July 20, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Spacetime Wrote: You must not be thoughtful about what I have told you about me, or my former faith, or my sincerity, or my devotion to understanding Christianity (as a faith, lifestyle, etc.). If you're not being thoughtful about what I've said, how can we meet on honest terms as men?
...
You are not the first person to come to that conclusion with him.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 7:24 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2015 at 7:31 am by Randy Carson.)
(July 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Spacetime Wrote: 1) The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.
I've already answered this question. Simply repeating it to me and others again and again accomplishes nothing.
What you're REALLY asking is: "Why hasn't the evidence so completely overwhelmed me that I have no choice but to accept the existence of God?"
Sorry, mate. You have to CHOOSE to follow God; you can't get off with saying, "Well, God didn't force me to believe, so he must not exist."
YOU and YOU ALONE are responsible for your choice. God is blameless.
Quote:2) If scripture says that I can know the difference between good and evil, and I believe that the god of scripture is evil... why should I worship this god?
Just because you have the potential to know the difference it does not follow automatically that you WILL know the difference each and every time. You can be wrong. As you are in this case about God being evil. Sorry, sport.
Quote:3) If scripture is god-breathed and right for teaching, why does it conclude that the Earth is 6,000 years old, which would put the creation of man in the middle of the height of Egyptian pyramid-building?
Just because scripture is God-breathed and useful for instruction, it does not automatically follow that the men chosen by God to write the scriptures were capable of describing a universe that was billions of years old because this information was beyond them. They were NOT mere scribes taking dictation.
Quote:4) Why does god let thousands of toddlers die every day of starvation?
If you are as knowledgeable about these matters as you claim to be, then you already know the answer to your question. You just don't like it.
Quote:5) How do you square the holocaust? If god is all good and powerful, and was everywhere during the holocaust, why did he not intervene?
Free will. You know this. You just don't like it.
Quote:6) I prayed that my boss's niece (6 years old) would not die of cancer... but she did. Was it god that destroyed her family's lives by not answering their prayers or was it because Eve did an evil thing before she knew what evil was?
Neither. God is not obligated to answer every prayer or heal every sickness. This would be short-sighted; God has the long view in mind.
I could continue, but I have to ask: Are you actually seeking answers that you will accept if I provide them? Or are you merely throwing out question after question to demonstrate that you have more objections to Christianity than can ever possibly be answered...and therefore, you are, in your own opinion, justified in rejecting it?
Sorry, but a blizzard of questions doesn't even BEGIN to prove Christianity false. Because once the snow stops falling, the Son appears and His warmth melts all of it.
So, when you are ready to listen, there are answers available.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 7:53 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2015 at 7:54 am by Randy Carson.)
(July 20, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Spacetime Wrote: You must not be thoughtful about what I have told you about me, or my former faith, or my sincerity, or my devotion to understanding Christianity (as a faith, lifestyle, etc.). If you're not being thoughtful about what I've said, how can we meet on honest terms as men?
How have I not been thoughtful?
(July 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Quote:Yes, I'm aware of the fact that WE are discussing theodicy.
And I was not speaking of the Argument for Fine Tuning which demonstrates the existence of God. I was arguing for the Fine Tuning of the Evidence which is a phrase I coined a few days ago (for fun) to explain how God uses JUST ENOUGH evidence to enable you to find him without using so much evidence that you are coerced. Since each person is different, it is my contention that God uses varying amounts of evidence for each person based upon their individual needs. Thus, He "fine tunes" the evidence to the right balance for YOU, and Jenny A, and robvalue, and so forth.
What proof do you have have God "fine tunes" evidence? Evidence cannot change, it can only be misunderstood as evidence for a positive claim when later experimentation proves the positive claim as inaccurate.
No, the historical evidence does not change. However, God can reveal Himself to varying degrees from person to person. For example, the alcoholic who is at rock bottom may get a powerful visitation from God whereas the child whose parents take her to Church each Sunday may be led into a relationship more gently.
In the same manner, some people fall in "love at first sight" and marry after a short period of dating (for my grandparents, it was 30 days!) whereas other couples may have known each other for years before they ever begin dating.
Is this not intuitive?
Quote:Quote:Your kind is humankind, and your mind is finitemind. You simply are not in a position to be able to judge whether the infinite God has sufficient reasons for allowing suffering. Sorry, mate, but your arms are too short to box with God.
Your scriptures prove that I can know the difference between good and evil. Are you denying Holy Scripture?
No, and as I said in my previous post when I answered questions you posed to Gods Child, just because you CAN know the difference, it does not follow that you DO know the difference. I have the ability to understand mathematics, but without proper education, I will not be able to do advanced math.
You seem to lack proper education about some aspects of theology and one gaping hole relates to theodicy.
More later.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 9:03 am
(July 20, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Spacetime Wrote: The answer to your question of whether or not I was willing to follow Christ has been answered. The answer is a profound yes. Then you forked the conversation. I don't know if you're avoiding this or not... but you've still not answered my original question. So I'll post it here again. Hopefully, you'll answer it this time (third time's the charm, I guess?).
The bible mentions belief as though it were a choice. I've found that my Christian identity is wholly wrapped up in trying (desperately) to believe, when I simply have not been convinced. A positive affirmation of belief "on" Christ Jesus would be a lie in my case... something that very doctrine prohibits. What I do believe is that I've made tremendous effort in trying to believe, by investigating the faith. Without deconstructing this paragraph, please address this over all point; If belief is a choice and there is evidence that this belief is convincing and rational, why hasn't this evidence rationally convinced me to believe? Especially when I'm not ignorant to it... down to its most specific points.
FINAL ANSWER
God maintains a delicate balance between keeping His existence sufficiently evident so people will know he's there and yet hiding his presence enough so that people who want to choose to ignore Him can do so. This way, their choice of destiny is really free.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 9:06 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2015 at 9:09 am by The Grand Nudger.)
When the messenger fails to deliver the note...it makes little sense to blame the intended recipient for not getting it. That holds equally as well in the case of god...or yourself.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 9:11 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2015 at 9:14 am by robvalue.)
Once the spell is broken, all this stuff just loses its potency it seems. All of our fairly recent converts seems utterly immune to arguments which apparently persuade our theists, and better still can highlight all the very real problems with them.
To believe, you must already believe. Break that cycle and you're free. I know the odd person drifts around and into other religions and stuff... but those that take it seriously and learn some decent critical thinking seem to stay clear with relative ease.
It reminds me a lot of when I was in a bad relationship and all my friends were telling me why I shouldn't be with that person. I was under the spell, and made all kinds of excuses. I just wouldn't listen. But when I finally got out, everything they were saying made sense, and I looked back and said, "What the fuck was I doing?"
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 9:21 am
(July 20, 2015 at 9:13 pm)Spacetime Wrote: 2) If scripture says that I can know the difference between good and evil, and I believe that the god of scripture is evil... why should I worship this god?
FINAL ANSWER
As you point out, you have the potential to know the difference between good and evil, and this is a God-given ability. Other animals who share this planet with us do not have this ability. So, while you can KNOW the difference between good and evil, you only believe - but do NOT know - that God is evil. This is only your opinion based on an incomplete evaluation of the facts.
Unless you are privy to the plans that God has for every man, woman and child who ever walk the face of the earth or were aborted in their mothers' wombs as well as for all of mankind and creation in the future and all of our interconnectedness, you simply cannot KNOW that God is evil. This is just your opinion...and one that is seriously flawed because it is based on incomplete information and poor reasoning about the little you do know.
More later.
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RE: Hostage to fear
July 21, 2015 at 9:22 am
(This post was last modified: July 21, 2015 at 9:24 am by Randy Carson.)
(July 21, 2015 at 9:06 am)Rhythm Wrote: When the messenger fails to deliver the note...it makes little sense to blame the intended recipient for not getting it. That holds equally as well in the case of god...or yourself.
Or the package remains unopened.
You are free to open it if you wish. Or not.
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