(July 2, 2015 at 12:50 am)whateverist Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Nope Wrote: Bible god punished the people of Sodom because they didn't help the poor.

Why do so many of the good theist become atheists?

Good theists tend to read the bible, unlike the judgmental nit-picky kind who simply hide behind the book they don't understand and likely haven't read.  As Isaac Asimov said: “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”

(July 1, 2015 at 9:43 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 7:57 am)robvalue Wrote: You're totally right. The amount of time some Christians spend demonising homosexuals is entirely disproportionate to what their book says. As I explained, the story of Sodom isn't about homosexuality, so that leaves one puny reference in the middle of the OT (which we don't follow now, remember?). It's mentioned about the same number of times as eating shellfish and wearing clothing weaved from two fabrics.

And even then, this verse can be reasonably interpreted to mean sodomy, but not homosexuality. The Christians involved either can't or won't understand the difference.

Perhaps the reason Christians spend a disproportionate amount of time addressing homosexuality is because the media (movies and television especially) spends a disproportionate amount of time promoting homosexuality.

Considering the fact that less than 5% of the population is actually gay, the percentage of gay characters appearing in television shows and movies is often far more than the 5% number would suggest for realism.

Expecting Hollywood to be realistic? Now I know you're a fool.

Were you complaining when blacks were underrepresented? Yeah, I didn't think so.

(July 1, 2015 at 9:43 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 7:57 am)robvalue Wrote: You're totally right. The amount of time some Christians spend demonising homosexuals is entirely disproportionate to what their book says. As I explained, the story of Sodom isn't about homosexuality, so that leaves one puny reference in the middle of the OT (which we don't follow now, remember?). It's mentioned about the same number of times as eating shellfish and wearing clothing weaved from two fabrics.

And even then, this verse can be reasonably interpreted to mean sodomy, but not homosexuality. The Christians involved either can't or won't understand the difference.

Perhaps the reason Christians spend a disproportionate amount of time addressing homosexuality is because the media (movies and television especially) spends a disproportionate amount of time promoting homosexuality.

Considering the fact that less than 5% of the population is actually gay, the percentage of gay characters appearing in television shows and movies is often far more than the 5% number would suggest for realism.

You realize that just in America, the population is currently somewhere around 318.9 million people, right? That means that 5% of the population is still approximately 15.945 MILLION gay people. Furthermore, one study found that the average American knows about 600 people. Even if it's less than that by a few hundred, that still means that EVERY average American knows at least a few gay people personally. Also, because of the way they're ostracized by various cultures and interest groups (to put it nicely), gay people tend to gravitate toward areas where there is a high level of acceptance for homosexuality, meaning that gay people are likely to be more concentrated in some populations and geographic areas than in others. They're also more likely to choose friend groupings that involve other gay people and people who don't mind being around gay people.

Now let's reflect on how Hollywood portrays gay people. In general, you either have media where almost nobody is gay and the few gay characters are on the fringe of the story and humor, and then you have media where several or even most of the characters are gay. What about either of those situations is not realistic?

You also have to account for the fact that Hollywood and its media are full of actors and theater people, and actors and theater people tend to have more open homosexuals amongst their ranks than other areas of the population. This issue is near and dear to the hearts of many theater and film workers, and it's a hot-button issue in our culture right now. As we all know, media is generally a reflection of the culture that makes it, so it stands to reason that gay characters and issues are showing up in a lot of the media we produce and consume.

I have to say, all the butthurt over gay marriage is just icing on an already fabulous rainbow cake. The best part is that we get nothing but impotent blustering about an ancient, magic Jew returning to Earth with a lust for blood.

I am bathing in conservative Christian tears and loving every minute of it.

Careful FNM, they might give you a rash

They taste sweet though

It's absolutely pathetic, isn't it?

An epic turning point in the advancement of human rights and civilization, and there are people crying about it and cursing it.

Let the hate go.

ESQ Wrote:Hey, do you think you could try making one post without all this grandstanding? It reads like wishful thinking.

Your really funny, grandstanding really, you were the one who started this off by trying to make me look like I don't know the scriptures, when we know it's you that's Biblical ignorant. You're just like a first grader who wants to tell everyone what they believe and when one stands up to you you go home crying, we've seen this here time and again. Get over it and grow up or go join Minny in the sandbox.

ESQ Wrote:Pharaoh "defied" god exactly once without god directly intervening to make it so, when two random assholes barged their way into his house and were like "yo, our god is totally real, we have no proof, but he says to do what we say, so do it!"

You watch to much Hollywood drama for your info, the scriptures do not say Moses and Aaron burst, in before Pharaoh and the guards wouldn't allow such an intrusion, their lives depended on protecting Pharaoh.

Here's a break down of Pharaoh's denials and God's action towards them.

Exodus 5:2 .....I (Pharaoh) will not let the people of Israel go.  This is Pharaoh's first refusal and nothing is said of God hardening his heart.

Moses was told by God He would harden Pharaoh's heart when Moses and Aaron meet with Pharaoh the second time and this is recorded in Exodus 7:13  Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD said.

Moses next meeting with Pharaoh resulted in Pharaoh's magicians doing their thing and Exodus 7:22 ....... So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened and he would not listen to them, as the LORD said. 23) Pharaoh turned and went into his house, and he did not take even this to heart.

This takes place in chapter 8. The meeting after the plague of the frogs was called by Pharaoh, he asked Moses to ask God to take away the frogs, he asked Moses to plead with God. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart at this time was not permanent and he recognized God, at this time. Then this happened, Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw there was a respite, he (Pharaoh) hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

This happened after the plague of gnats, Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Nothing in this passage leads one to believe God had hardened his heart again.

This happens after the plague of flies. Exodus 8:25 Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and said, "Go, sacrifice to your God within the land."  Then in Exodus 8:28 So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go to sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you must not go very far away. Plead for me. Here Pharaoh has started to relent showing God had not yet permanently hardened his heart. Then after God had removed the plague of flies, Pharaoh had this to say, Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go. Again it's Pharaoh who hardened his heart not God. By the way encase you are not aware of it Moses had asked only to let the Israelites go into the desert to worship and sacrifice for a short time.

In chapter 9 God causes all the live stock to die, Moses told him that none of the Israelites livestock would die. In Exodus 9:7 we see this. And Pharaoh sent, and behold, not one of the livestock of Israel was dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened , and he did not let the people go.

During the plague of boils in chapter 9:12 we see this. But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Now, later in chapter 9 we see that God tells Pharaoh in 9:16 that He was using the hardhearted Pharaoh to proclaim His name and power to all the land. God tells him He had risen him up for this purpose. This doesn't mean this Pharaoh was born to this purpose, God knew his heart and brought him to power to serve God's purpose, God had some 400 years to bring this about.

Now later in chapter 9 Pharaoh again called Moses and Aaron to him and said in Exodus 9:27 .... " This time I have sinned; the LORD is in the right and I and my people are in the wrong. 28) Plead with the LORD, for there's been enough of God's thunder and hail. I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer. Then in Exodus 9:34 we see this. But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35) So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened and he wouldn't let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.

Now we come to the plague of locust and Pharaoh gives the same excuse as before and this time God permanently hardens Pharaoh's heart, now God turns Pharaoh lose with a heart of hatred and Pharaoh sees the awful power that God can use upon a disobedient people. Pharaoh was the one who first hardened his heat and did several times before God would have no more of it and put Pharaoh under His punishment for disobedience.

ESQ Wrote:Quite understandably, Pharaoh asked who that god was, which any reasonable person would respond to by providing evidence that what they're saying is true. Instead, Moses and his brother did no such thing; essentially what you're saying is that Pharaoh should have just accepted the word of two complete strangers, making a ridiculous claim with no evidence, at face value.

Moses and Aaron obeyed God, did only as He instructed. Pharaoh was shown this great God, Pharaoh got his answer. By the way this Pharaoh did know Moses and possibly Aaron. Pharaoh was given his evidence but he thought more of himself, ( self interest, the original sin) than he did of his people. Pharaoh started the process of hardening his heart against God and when he wouldn't relent, God said enough is enough and put an end to it.
 

ESQ Wrote:Gee, no wonder you're a christian if that's the way you think.

I'm a Christian because of God's wonderful grace, and as a Christian I study the Bible, something obviously you do not do even for an argument.

Hmm. Appeals to Hollywood! That's a new one.

I wonder why homosexuals were so persecuted after the bible was written but before Hollywood came about then...

(July 1, 2015 at 11:36 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 10:15 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm the one who remembers it very well and was actually waiting for someone to make this mistake, I knew sooner or later someone who didn't know the scriptures would stumble over their own pride.

Hey, do you think you could try making one post without all this grandstanding? It reads like wishful thinking.

Quote: Pharaoh refused many times on his own accord, God gave him the chance to do as God asked but he thought being a god himself he could defy the only true God. When Pharaoh got to this point God did harden his heart to teach him who this God he was trying to defy really was. You can be assured God's power will be shown again and those who have defied Him will understand what Pharaoh went through.

GC

Pharaoh "defied" god exactly once without god directly intervening to make it so, when two random assholes barged their way into his house and were like "yo, our god is totally real, we have no proof, but he says to do what we say, so do it!" Quite understandably, Pharaoh asked who that god was, which any reasonable person would respond to by providing evidence that what they're saying is true. Instead, Moses and his brother did no such thing; essentially what you're saying is that Pharaoh should have just accepted the word of two complete strangers, making a ridiculous claim with no evidence, at face value.

Gee, no wonder you're a christian if that's the way you think.  

The Pharaoh was a dummy.  If I had been him I would have immediately executed Moses and Aaron even if it had meant war with Assyria for killing their diplomats.

You know, I'm interested in these theist/atheist discussions but I can feel a shift in my willingness to even read posts that quote scripture and try to interpret and justify it.

It just seems so futile and ridiculous that it almost seems like I'm reading a film script and not the real thoughts of real adults. Perhaps it's just me.

An example from GC (I'm not picking on you personally GC, it's just the most recent one)...

"By the way this Pharaoh did know Moses and possibly Aaron. Pharaoh was given his evidence but he thought more of himself, ( self interest, the original sin) than he did of his people. Pharaoh started the process of hardening his heart against God and when he wouldn't relent, God said enough is enough and put an end to it."

Now, to me, the fact that those type of thoughts exist in peoples heads is starting to seem completely alien to me. That someone places so much value in these ancient stories that it steers their entire life to the detriment of anything else starts to really sadden me if I ponder it for too long.

It's not just me is it?