Mock dialogue of the Theist/Atheist discussion here.

[Mystic]

---

This is definitely not representative of all but to me is over all been summary of experience as far as the Theist/Atheistic debate goes.

Theist: I believe in God.

Atheist: Why?

Theist: Explains...

Atheist: That's personal and you can't prove that to us. It's useless to us and you are probably deluded.

Theist1: That's ok, I'm not here to convince you.


Atheist: If God was known to you, he would be known to us, if he existed he would be provable, can you even define God...can you even explain what you experienced....etc..etc...

Theist2: Explains but I also have arguments to prove belief in God is rational and think these arguments are strong reasons to believe in God.

Atheist:  Your arguments are wrong....(some even say arguments are useless, we need evidence...physical evidence!!)

Theist2: I believe my arguments are right - they seem to be decisively true.

Atheist:  There are no good arguments for God, you simply want to believe, etc, etc, preaching mode...

Theist2: let's discuss the arguments patiently and see.

Atheist: What argument, there is nothing to discuss, it's invalid, it's premises are just bare assertions etc etc...

Theist2: Eh, these arguments.....

Atheist: Invalid, unproven, bare assertion, etc etc....

Theist2: I don't think it's invalid due to this and that...it's not a bare assertion but etc etc...

Atheist: No it's.......

Theist3: I believe in my religion due to this and that.

Atheist: All religions are same, where is the proof, where is the evidence...why doesn't God talk to all of us..why didn't he this.

Theist3: Well..from my understanding..this and that...

Atheist: LOL excuses, just making excuses to believe in your religion.

Theist3: Let'd discuss the reasons and leave the issue of God on hold....

Atheist: Of course if you are going to justify your belief by your belief in God then..........every religion can claim the same thing about their religion, their god, etc...

Theist3: But these are the reasons I believe in this and they seem to imply this religion is unique in that this and that......and I believe in these reasons because of this and that.

Atheist: "Preach mode", religion is bad , it's this and that, we can do without it, etc. etc........

Theist3: I agree religion over all is bad because over all they are falsely taught but...

Atheist: Your religion too...this and that...

Theist3: But I believe if people only.......

Atheist: No true scottsman! + your God pathetic for not making sure people followed the message....etc etc...if it was clear this and that...

My question: how will we go past this..........

---

Is there a better way to have dialogue over this issue?

Sure, there is.

Theist: I believe in God.

Atheist: That's nice, but I ordered a cheeseburger.

Theist: I'm sorry, sir. Coming right up.

Atheist: Great, thanks.

        THE END

Oh man that me laugh even more.

[robvalue]

All I'm reading here is that you want us to agree with you that your reasons are solid.

But we don't think they are.

Why can't you accept that and move on? Why is it so important we agree with you?

[Jenny A]

No, reason is not reality anymore than a dream or a novel is reality.  You can for example prove vario

If so, tell me which one of our five sense detects that "self"? Is it the eyes that see who you are. Is it the ears? 

How do you detect love? What does it mean to you?

Justice, goodness, beauty is a detectable as perceiving myself exists. I see no reason to make an exception to them, the perception of myself actually depends on them existing.

Those things are all abstract ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is not measurable and opinions about it differ widely. The same is true of goodness, and justice. The are human judgments no more. A rock has the same mass regardless of who or what perceives it. Not so beauty. Beauty is in your mind, not in reality.

Self is rather complicated as it appears to be a function of the brain. Without the brain, the function ceases.

[Mystic]

No, reason is not reality anymore than a dream or a novel is reality.  You can for example prove vario

If so, tell me which one of our five sense detects that "self"? Is it the eyes that see who you are. Is it the ears? 

How do you detect love? What does it mean to you?

Justice, goodness, beauty is a detectable as perceiving myself exists. I see no reason to make an exception to them, the perception of myself actually depends on them existing.

Those things are all abstract ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  It is not measurable and opinions about it differ widely.  The same is true of goodness, and justice.  The are human judgmentspirit no more. A rock has the same mass regardless of who or what perceives it. Not so beauty.  Beauty is in your mind, not in reality.  

Self is rather complicated as it appears to be a function of the brain. Without the brain,  the function ceases.

What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

[Nay_Sayer]

You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

[Mystic]

You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

You don't realize it but people like you make Theists think badly of Atheists. If over all you guys would give a sincere humble compassionate approach, you would be respected more by Theists. I know some Atheists in real life, and they are not like this at all, so I don't think Atheists are the type to always throw insults.  In fact I've witnessed some of the more compassionate caring types and understanding to be Atheists.

But this attitude has to go for that to happen online too. If a Theist wonders how Atheists are like and he sees insults and what not, that's going to give him an impression. If the most person to be given kudos on the site is a person with most toxic attitude towards Theists, then what do you expect Theists to think? You want to mock and insult, that's up to you. It's your choice. But it makes you look weaker and not stronger.

Yes the Theist coming online shouldn't generalize his experience to people in general in real life, but it will happen.

If more people were like Whateverist here or Tiberius (and I can mention many more good names), then people would have a very good impression.

I know people say "Atheism" doesn't play any role in how the person acts because it simply is a lack of belief in God, but that's not how its going to give an impression and seem like to most people coming online to these forums.

[Jenny A]

What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

The physical effects of the moon are quantifiable. If we do measure it, we will reach the same conclusions about it's mass. We both know it has mass and that that mass is quantifiable. If we pretend it doesn't exist, it won't go away. It will still reflect the sun's light. It will still affect earth'so orbit. In short it exists.

Harry Potter exists in our thoughts. But we don’t all have the same picture of him, and we can't weigh him. Unlike the moon, if we all cease to think about him, he will cease to exist. God exists in exactly the same way as Harry Potter, no more, no less. That is to say they are both thought constructs nothing more.

[Mystic]

---

What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

---

The physical effects of the moon are quantifiable.  If we do measure it, we will reach the same conclusions about it's mass. We both know it has mass and that that mass is quantifiable.  If we pretend it doesn't exist, it won't go away.  It will still reflect the sun's light. It will still affect earth'so orbit. In short it exists.

Harry Potter exists in our thoughts.  But we don’t all have the same picture of him, and we can't weigh him. Unlike the moon, if we all cease to think about him, he will cease to exist. God exists in exactly the same way as Harry Potter, no more, no less. That is to say they are both thought constructs nothing more.

That just shows if we have objective value it's not determined by our own or other people's thoughts. So would you agree if we can perceive we have objective value, we ought to ask "how?" when my perception is not that which determines that value nor anyone else for that matter. How does it exist (the objective value of myself)?

[Jenny A]

---

What if you perceive you yourself have an objective value but don't know how to measure it? Why is that impossible rationally?

To give an example, I see the moon. I know it has a mass. I don't know how to measure it but I know it has a weight. 

Why can't the same be true about the perception of myself?

---

The physical effects of the moon are quantifiable.  If we do measure it, we will reach the same conclusions about it's mass. We both know it has mass and that that mass is quantifiable.  If we pretend it doesn't exist, it won't go away.  It will still reflect the sun's light. It will still affect earth'so orbit. In short it exists.

Harry Potter exists in our thoughts.  But we don’t all have the same picture of him, and we can't weigh him. Unlike the moon, if we all cease to think about him, he will cease to exist. God exists in exactly the same way as Harry Potter, no more, no less. That is to say they are both thought constructs nothing more.

That just shows if we have objective value it's not determined by our own or other people's thoughts. So would you agree if we can perceive we have objective value, we ought to ask "how?" when my perception is not that which determines that value nor anyone else for that matter. How does it exist (the objective value of myself)?

Exactly, if objective value exists (and anyone who doesn't believe in objective reality doesn't live long) our perception of it does not change it. How it exists isn't really a useful question unless we have some means of answering it.

But, then you turn to self, beauty, and justice. In a very real sense, these things do not exist. They are attributes of our thoughts not things in the real world. They are products of your brain. When you describe the moon as beautiful you are describing the inner workings of your mind and the culture in which you live's subjective values. But you aren't describing the moon.

[Nay_Sayer]

You left out the 3rd idiot (I don't think atheists or theists are idiots, but mystic sure is)

MysticKnight: "I am so smart, I know I picked the right religion because my book says so, i deserve a cookie....mmmm so halal"

You don't realize it but people like you make Theists think badly of Atheists. If over all you guys would give a sincere humble compassionate approach, you would be respected more by Theists. I know some Atheists in real life, and they are not like this at all, so I don't think Atheists are the type to always throw insults.  In fact I've witnessed some of the more compassionate caring types and understanding to be Atheists.

But this attitude has to go for that to happen online too. If a Theist wonders how Atheists are like and he sees insults and what not, that's going to give him an impression. If the most person to be given kudos on the site is a person with most toxic attitude towards Theists, then what do you expect Theists to think? You want to mock and insult, that's up to you. It's your choice. But it makes you look weaker and not stronger.

Yes the Theist coming online shouldn't generalize his experience to people in general in real life, but it will happen.

If more people were like Whateverist here or Tiberius (and I can mention many more good names), then people would have a very good impression.

I know people say "Atheism" doesn't play any role in how the person acts because it simply is a lack of belief in God, but that's not how its going to give an impression and seem like to most people coming online to these forums.

 How would that work? I'm a theist in regards to FSM, learn to read.
Anyway you posted this imaginary huge strawman argument and in the process made yourself look like a huge tool.