pop morality

[Cecelia]

If slavery is morally necessary, why did Yahweh free all the Egyptian slaves? Would that act not be immoral? You're crippling an entire economy. That's not to mention all the havoc the plagues would have wrecked on Egypt. That Egypt is standing today, if the Exodus Myth were true, would be a testament to the power of Ra and the other Egyptian Gods. The plagues would have wiped out Egypt, and most of their army. And there were neighbors not too far who would gladly have conquered Egypt in their weakened state. And that's just the plagues. Not to mention the loss of their slave labor in their entirety.

Oh and of course they had enough manpower left to wipe out all evidence of the Hebrews ever being slaves, or any of the plagues actually happening.

[Whateverist]

If slavery is morally necessary, why did Yahweh free all the Egyptian slaves?  Would that act not be immoral?  You're crippling an entire economy.  That's not to mention all the havoc the plagues would have wrecked on Egypt.

But that's okay because in the bible there are people God favors and those He does not. Nothing against Egyptians per se, God just doesn't like them. That means fucking with them is permitted; and if it furthers the cause of His very favorite people then fucking up the Egyptians would have been seen as required.

That Egypt is standing today, if the Exodus Myth were true, would be a testament to the power of Ra and the other Egyptian Gods.  The plagues would have wiped out Egypt, and most of their army.  And there were neighbors not too far who would gladly have conquered Egypt in their weakened state.   And that's just the plagues.  Not to mention the loss of their slave labor in their entirety.

Oh and of course they had enough manpower left to wipe out all evidence of the Hebrews ever being slaves, or any of the plagues actually happening.

Ra is great.

[drfuzzy]

Drich Wrote:[url=http://atheistforums.org/post-1210279.html#pid1210279][/url]

@Dritch

Your premise, god equals righteousness fails initially on two counts:  no one can demonstrate there is a god;

If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.

and no one can agree about what god is.

I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

====
I fail miserably at the quote function 9 times out of 10, so I just cut and pasted.

Interested in the purple bolded above. Drippy.  If we could demonstrate that God exists, he would no longer be God.  
Elaborate on that a bit.  Because it's a major premise of mine for atheism.  

God wants ALL PEOPLE to know him.  However, all we have had to go by for the last 2000+ years at least is a set of highly flawed books and a bunch of priests/preachers.  These preachers have managed to convince much less than 1/4 of the people on the planet.  (Actually, if you only count the Catholics, who are the only people going to heaven according to Pope Benedict, the number is 16%.)  This, by itself, is a completely useless system for telling a population "hey folks, I'm here".  In another post, someone pointed out that god shouldn't need prophets OR books.  God is omniscient and omnipotent.  A creature with those attributes wouldn't fuck up sending a simple message THIS BADLY.  And in our day and age, a 10-year-old on Facebook can get a credible message to every nation on earth.  So your god is a complete communications failure, but if we could prove he exists, he wouldn't be god anymore?  Say what?

[downbeatplumb]

The bolded part was exactly my point. A true communist country has never been allowed to flower because the US sees communism as a threat and drove burgeoning communist countries into the arms of the soviets by default.

I know what you point was that is why I included in my post. Now if I could only get you to read the last sentence.

I read it and ignored it for the ignorant drivel it is.

[Jenny A]

Sorry, but ASK isn't a method of finding anything except whatever it is you would like to  believe.  I try to choose what I 

Sorry, but ASK isn't a method of finding anything except whatever it is you would like to  believe.  I try to choose what I believe based upon what is not what I'd like to believe.

We use Ask Seek Knock everyday of our lives. The parable from which this principle is first taught shows how we use this method in obtaining trivial things. Because the only thing required is the humility needed to see one's self in need.

I understand what you are trying to say, in that you want to try and filter everything through a 'science' filter. Let me ask you, would you 'filter' turn by turn direction through the scientific method or what if someone gave you a treasure map, and they showed you what they were able to bring back from following the map themselves? again would you try and filter the map through 'science' to first validate it? or would you simply follow the directions to find out if it was correct?

A/S/K are directions not a theory that can be tested by the scientific method.

I don't actually try to filter every daily decision through the scientific method.  Common sense, critcal thinking, and experience are enough for most every day decisions.  I don't ask for a peer reviewed study before crossing a bridge or eating a piece of meat.  No one does.   I rely on common sense. Most bridges stay up the vast majority of the time.  Very little contaminated meat is sold in this county.  

Other questions don't merit the time and effort to solve them.  The brand of deodorant I use is reasonably priced and works.  The may be a better working, better priced alternative,  but finding it isn't worth my time.

A/S/K is not a method I use.  Your treasure map analogy is silly.  If someone gave me a treasure map it would be a novel experience. Has anyone ever given you or anyone you know a treasure map?  It's very oddness would suggest further investigation was needed.  I'd have to ask if they'd already brought back all of the treasure,  and if not, why they were telling me instead of getting all of it themselves.  

And unlike someone who can show me the treasure they brought back, you can't  show me god, or even any credible evidence that you found him. Or given your description of him, that he'd be a treasure if I found him. 

I do follow directions, particularly if they appear safe and it's easy to see if they work. Just recently, I learned to make Turkish coffee by googling it.  But, I've drunk Turkish coffee before,  and whether the directions worked was easy to ascertain.   It did, by the way, and we've been having it about every third morning ever since. It makes for a luxurious quarter hour before my sweetie heads off to work.  I follow much more onerous directions if I see real need and results.  Our retirement account is an example of such results. 

But there are directions my common sense and natural  skepticism tell me are dangerous to follow.  Like your hypothetical treasure map, they are often get rich with little or no effort  schemes.  Or like crystals to adjust my aura,  or your god scheme,  the results are not quantifiable.  If someone adds, that it won't work unless you really want  it to,  all the skeptic buzzers go off. 

And before you go off on some ridiculous tangent about needing to want to do something like, playing the piano, quiting smoking or, exercising more, let me note that that has to do with putting in the effort to follow the directions and not if the directions describe anything real. I've taught myself to paint. And yes had to want to learn and practice.  But the results are demonastratable. People can demonstrate piano playing, lack of smoking, exercise, and painting,  see below.  Your god, like my aura remains undemonstrable.  

Frankly, the aura, and god are of a muchness. And while they factually contradict one another both, as well as the truth of the Koran or the Book of Mormon, can be found the same way.  A/S/K is an invitation to invent your own facts,  not a method for finding the truth.  And once they have found such stuff, I don't  see people's lives improving,  but I do see them ignoring or avoiding verifiable facts,  such as the absence of evidence for a world wide flood, which would exist, had it happened. 

Humbleness consists of questioning what you can do and know, not in thinking about superior being loves you and that you know all about that being. 

[Drich]

If slavery is morally necessary, why did Yahweh free all the Egyptian slaves?  

Good question!
but first I would like to point out that it was God to lead them into Egypt so that infact that they would become slaves to begin with, so that Egypt could protect, feed and cause the 12 tribe family grow into a whole nation.

Would that act not be immoral?  

So then to answer this question we first must know Why God let them go. we are told that in those last days of Egyptian slavery that Egypt had forgotten the pledge previous pharaohs swore to Joseph, and they became hard and began to mistreat the Jews. The final straw for God was when the Pharaoh of the exodus saw that the number of Jews out numbered the egyptians and the pharaoh had all of the boys murdered to the age of 10 I believe.

In this example we see slavery not being the immorality as God Himself lead the Sons of Israel into it, but it was the mistreatment of the slaves that triggered the exodus.

You're crippling an entire economy.  That's not to mention all the havoc the plagues would have wrecked on Egypt.

Indeed. Which I would call a judgement of God on those people.

 That Egypt is standing today, if the Exodus Myth were true, would be a testament to the power of Ra and the other Egyptian Gods.  The plagues would have wiped out Egypt, and most of their army.  And there were neighbors not too far who would gladly have conquered Egypt in their weakened state.   And that's just the plagues.  Not to mention the loss of their slave labor in their entirety.

It's funny you mention all of this because in my last thread "proof of the exodus for those who want it" we discuss a "book" written from an 'egyptian sage' that is in a museum and has been authenticated as being from the period in which some scholars believe the exodus took place, and everything you described here was recorded in that book.

That the Egypt of the exodus stood in ruin and was indeed captured by it's enemies thus ending the "middle Kingdom." Starting a 100 year "dark period" where little to absolutely nothing was know about Egypt because nothing survived. Then after this dark period it was rebuilt into the "new Kingdom." This was not the first time it happened either. their was the "old Kingdom" then a 200 or 300 year dark period then the middle kingdom.

If you are intrested i mention a documentary on net flix that outlines all of this in Great detail!

Oh and of course they had enough manpower left to wipe out all evidence of the Hebrews ever being slaves, or any of the plagues actually happening.

Actually as the documentary explains they didn't wipe anything out. It is all there and always has been. The objection you have is based on the idea that the jewish verbal tradition of the exodus happened under pharaoh Ramses the great in the new Kingdom... The objection you have is 100% correct. their were no Jews in the New Kingdom.. they had been gone from egypt between 3 and 4 hundred years at that point. However if you look back to the middle kingdom you see not jews, because the Jews were not known as jews till after they took the holy land (40 years after the exodus) they were known as the semites of the goshen region. They were for all intense and purposes, Egyptians who came from the 'north'. Again, the documentary actually takes you to the city that is being excavated by a German archaeologist (the absolute top of his field) who himself identifies these people as being semetic.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-40138.html

[Drich]

Drich Wrote:[url=http://atheistforums.org/post-1210279.html#pid1210279][/url]

@Dritch

Your premise, god equals righteousness fails initially on two counts:  no one can demonstrate there is a god;

If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.

and no one can agree about what god is.

I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

====
I fail miserably at the quote function 9 times out of 10, so I just cut and pasted.

Interested in the purple bolded above. Drippy.  If we could demonstrate that God exists, he would no longer be God.  
Elaborate on that a bit.  Because it's a major premise of mine for atheism.  

When I say that i have the scientific method in mind. More specifically the part where one experiments and as 'proof' can duplicate the experiment. Let's say God (Alpha and omega/All powerful being) could be manipulated into behaving a certain way. So, When one did XYZ God had to be Jonny on the Spot and produce ABC, each and every time XYZ was done. This is essentially the core of the scientific method, why? because it represents complete mastery and control over the theory test subject or phenomena.

So then as a simple point of logic, God can not be Alpha and Omega if he can be manipulated/experimented on. Why? because God would be serving or under the control of man, Rather the mandate God has given is man serve God. So rather, He has provided a way for us to serve Him, where he Himself retains control over who and what we experience yet find or secure what we personally need as the Holy Spirit will provide it. That's the key. We don't produce anything. God provides, If and when He has deemed us worthy.

God wants ALL PEOPLE to know him.  
However, all we have had to go by for the last 2000+ years at least is a set of highly flawed books and a bunch of priests/preachers.

I have studied these books with all that I am for the last 20+ years and yet to have find a fatal flaw in them. However I have found many many flaws in what preachers say. (just about all of them.) But, that's the thing about biblical Christianity. Their isn't a mandate that we must be right in our worship. In fact the core of biblical Christianity (The Version of Christianity described in the bible) is based on the fact that none are right so none can boast about earning his place in heaven.

That is why we have redemption. Fore the Same redemption we have when we willfully sin, is measured out to us 10xs over when we do our best and fail/get something wrong.

 These preachers have managed to convince much less than 1/4 of the people on the planet.  (Actually, if you only count the Catholics, who are the only people going to heaven according to Pope Benedict, the number is 16%.)  This, by itself, is a completely useless system for telling a population "hey folks, I'm here".  In another post, someone pointed out that god shouldn't need prophets OR books.  God is omniscient and omnipotent.  A creature with those attributes wouldn't fuck up sending a simple message THIS BADLY.  And in our day and age, a 10-year-old on Facebook can get a credible message to every nation on earth.  So your god is a complete communications failure, but if we could prove he exists, he wouldn't be god anymore?  Say what?

...And the above statement is why we have the OT...

Think of sunday school or maybe even to the "ten commandments movie" with NRA guy.. 'bright eyes.'

How much more absolute assurance do you think a people could have after witnessing the plagues, the parting of the red sea, the stone tablets that God himself wrote on, water out of stones, mirical healing by looking at a bronze snake on a pole, and on and on and on and on...

Yet these people (millions who witnessed all of this together) doubted God at each and every turn. Even within a few short decades they almost forgot him completely, and given enough time perverted his law So badly that Christ the Son of God himself was killed because they (the holiest of the Holy religious men) could no longer recognize the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.

This maybe a supprise, but God does not seek religious worship. He wants us. He wants our core being. He is not interested in meaningless rituals or empty chants or repetitious prayers. He wants more. He wants all of your Heart, All of your Mind, All of your Spirit and All of your Physical strength! Now because we are all different, this will manifest itself differently. by small degrees from person to person, but as we move further and further apart and go into different regions and communities. those tiny personal changes multiplies over nations of people, become major religious differences. And because those differences are indeed different, some will be wrong even while they are worshiping according to God's Greatest command Love God with "all of your Heart, All of your Mind, All of your Spirit and All of your Physical strength!"

So again, if the command is love God with all of your "being" and doing so looks a little different from person to person, and those differences will ultimatly mean some of us will be doing something wrong, God has to then put a system of redemption in to cover those 'wrongs.' (intended/sin or not/worship) That system is redemption/atonement that is at the very Core of Biblical Christianity.

So when you are a follower of Christ you are not measured by a set of religious rules. You are looked squarly in the eye by Him on that final Day and will be judged completely rightly and fully by him and Him alone, not by someone's understaning or mandates set by some/one of the many versions of Christianity. That is the day those of us who are Christians will become Christians. Because religion of any kind does not save us nor define who really are. Fore as you are no doubt aware one could claim to be this or that and have no internal desire to follow anything. there are many many TV preachers who we could use as examples of this. that is why i say 'we' don't get to award ourselves with the title 'Christian.' Only Jesus can. I can promise you that the bible/Jesus points out that many who call themselves 'christian' Christ will condemn to Hell. Likewise the bible also points out a huge number of people who have never heard the term much less followed the "right religious doctrine" will be counted as 'Christian." Christ is the only one worthy to hand out that title, NONE of us are.

That makes Religion, more over christianity a simple tool. it will help those seeking God a way to find Him here in this life, and it will also bind up or be the tool Jesus uses to identify our own evil hypocrisy. Like a wrench it will work to tighen some of us down while it can also be used to loosen/free others of us up.

In that, know God does not want to 'know everyone.' He only wants a relationship with those who seek one from Him.

[drfuzzy]

Drich Wrote:[url=http://atheistforums.org/post-1210279.html#pid1210279][/url]
If we could then he would no longer be God... However God has provided a path that if anyone were to follow would indeed Find Him.
I can promise you we (all bible believeing people Jew and Christian alike) agree on what God is.
God is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end to all Things.

====
I fail miserably at the quote function 9 times out of 10, so I just cut and pasted.

Interested in the purple bolded above. Drippy.  If we could demonstrate that God exists, he would no longer be God.  
Elaborate on that a bit.  Because it's a major premise of mine for atheism.  

---

 When I say that i have the scientific method in mind. More specifically the part where one experiments and as 'proof' can duplicate the experiment. Let's say God (Alpha and omega/All powerful being) could be manipulated into behaving a certain way. So, When one did XYZ God had to be Jonny on the Spot and produce ABC, each and every time XYZ was done. This is essentially the core of the scientific method, why? because it represents complete mastery and control over the theory test subject or phenomena.

So then as a simple point of logic, God can not be Alpha and Omega if he can be manipulated/experimented on. Why? because God would be serving or under the control of man, Rather the mandate God has given is man serve God. So rather, He has provided a way for us to serve Him, where he Himself retains control over who and what we experience yet find or secure what we personally need as the Holy Spirit will provide it. That's the key. We don't produce anything. God provides, If and when He has deemed us worthy.  

---

God wants ALL PEOPLE to know him.  
However, all we have had to go by for the last 2000+ years at least is a set of highly flawed books and a bunch of priests/preachers.

---

 I have studied these books with all that I am for the last 20+ years and yet to have find a fatal flaw in them. However I have found many many flaws in what preachers say. (just about all of them.) But, that's the thing about biblical Christianity. Their isn't a mandate that we must be right in our worship. In fact the core of biblical Christianity (The Version of Christianity described in the bible) is based on the fact that none are right so none can boast about earning his place in heaven.

That is why we have redemption. Fore the Same redemption we have when we willfully sin, is measured out to us 10xs over when we do our best and fail/get something wrong.

---

 These preachers have managed to convince much less than 1/4 of the people on the planet.  (Actually, if you only count the Catholics, who are the only people going to heaven according to Pope Benedict, the number is 16%.)  This, by itself, is a completely useless system for telling a population "hey folks, I'm here".  In another post, someone pointed out that god shouldn't need prophets OR books.  God is omniscient and omnipotent.  A creature with those attributes wouldn't fuck up sending a simple message THIS BADLY.  And in our day and age, a 10-year-old on Facebook can get a credible message to every nation on earth.  So your god is a complete communications failure, but if we could prove he exists, he wouldn't be god anymore?  Say what?

...And the above statement is why we have the OT...

Think of sunday school or maybe even to the "ten commandments movie" with NRA guy.. 'bright eyes.'

How much more absolute assurance do you think a people could have after witnessing the plagues, the parting of the red sea, the stone tablets that God himself wrote on, water out of stones, mirical healing by looking at a bronze snake on a pole, and on and on and on and on...

Yet these people (millions who witnessed all of this together) doubted God at each and every turn.

---

  Even within a few short decades they almost forgot him completely, and given enough time perverted his law So badly that Christ the Son of God himself was killed because they (the holiest of the Holy religious men) could no longer recognize the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ.

This maybe a supprise, but God does not seek religious worship. He wants us. He wants our core being. He is not interested in meaningless rituals or empty chants or repetitious prayers. He wants more. He wants all of your Heart, All of your Mind, All of your Spirit and All of your Physical strength! Now because we are all different, this will manifest itself differently. by small degrees from person to person, but as we move further and further apart and go into different regions and communities. those tiny personal changes multiplies over nations of people, become major religious differences. And because those differences are indeed different, some will be wrong even while they are worshiping according to God's Greatest command Love God with "all of your Heart, All of your Mind, All of your Spirit and All of your Physical strength!"

So again, if the command is love God with all of your "being" and doing so looks a little different from person to person, and those differences will ultimatly mean some of us will be doing something wrong, God has to then put a system of redemption in to cover those 'wrongs.' (intended/sin or not/worship) That system is redemption/atonement that is at the very Core of Biblical Christianity.

So when you are a follower of Christ you are not measured by a set of religious rules. You are looked squarly in the eye by Him on that final Day and will be judged completely rightly and fully by him and Him alone, not by someone's understaning or mandates set by some/one of the many versions of Christianity. That is the day those of us who are Christians will become Christians. Because religion of any kind does not save us nor define who really are. Fore as you are no doubt aware one could claim to be this or that and have no internal desire to follow anything. there are many many TV preachers who we could use as examples of this. that is why i say 'we' don't get to award ourselves with the title 'Christian.' Only Jesus can. I can promise you that the bible/Jesus points out that many who call themselves 'christian' Christ will condemn to Hell. Likewise the bible also points out a huge number of people who have never heard the term much less followed the "right religious doctrine" will be counted as 'Christian." Christ is the only one worthy to hand out that title, NONE of us are.

That makes Religion, more over christianity a simple tool. it will help those seeking God a way to find Him here in this life, and it will also bind up or be the tool Jesus uses to identify our own evil hypocrisy. Like a wrench it will work to tighen some of us down while it can also be used to loosen/free others of us up.

---

 

In that, know God does not want to 'know everyone.' He only wants a relationship with those who seek one from Him.

Yawn.  Another sermon.  Figures.  I listened to this bullshit for 46 years, I've had more than enough.

"How much more absolute assurance do you think a people could have after witnessing the plagues, the parting of the red sea, the stone tablets that God himself wrote on, water out of stones, mirical healing by looking at a bronze snake on a pole, and on and on and on and on...   Yet these people (millions who witnessed all of this together) doubted God at each and every turn."

Yeah, that tends to happen when you have a bunch of fairy tales, created many years after the fact, about things that didn't happen.

"In that, know God does not want to 'know everyone.' He only wants a relationship with those who seek one from Him."
Yep.  More or less.  If you think your deity exists, that is.  It's kind of funny how the church prays for the time when "every knee will bow" but gets absolutely orgasmic over descriptions of the destruction of non-believers, where the blood will rise "to the horses' bridles".  (I guess we're going to be in a dystopia of sorts where there won't be any cars or tanks or planes.)  Your god apparently only wants the select few, so he can jerk off to the eternal screams of tens of billions of human souls that he gets to torture forever, either because of his gross incompetence, or because he actually planned the torture for his own pleasure.
    No thanks.  It's quite a comfort to me to believe that your hideous sadistic evil god doesn't exist.  I think the worst curse anyone could send your way is this: May you meet your god someday.   
    And now I REALLY know better than to ask the drooling drippy doodle preechur any questions, ever again.  Thanks.

[Drich]

[quote='Drich' pid='1211783' dateline='1456322976']


We use Ask Seek Knock everyday of our lives. The parable from which this principle is first taught shows how we use this method in obtaining trivial things. Because the only thing required is the humility needed to see one's self in need.

I understand what you are trying to say, in that you want to try and filter everything through a 'science' filter. Let me ask you, would you 'filter' turn by turn direction through the scientific method or what if someone gave you a treasure map, and they showed you what they were able to bring back from following the map themselves? again would you try and filter the map through 'science' to first validate it? or would you simply follow the directions to find out if it was correct?

A/S/K are directions not a theory that can be tested by the scientific method.

I don't actually try to filter every daily decision through the scientific method.  Common sense, critcal thinking, and experience are enough for most every day decisions.  I don't ask for a peer reviewed study before crossing a bridge or eating a piece of meat.  No one does.   I rely on common sense. Most bridges stay up the vast majority of the time.  Very little contaminated meat is sold in this county.  

Other questions don't merit the time and effort to solve them.  The brand of deodorant I use is reasonably priced and works.  The may be a better working, better priced alternative,  but finding it isn't worth my time.

A/S/K is not a method I use.  Your treasure map analogy is silly.

What's silly is your selective blindness. I also gave the example of turn by turn directions. Ever use the GPS feature on your phone? Ever been taken somewhere other than your intended destination by the GPS? Are aware that it happens? What was/would be your response if you put in an unfamiliar address, and where the GPS lead you, was not where you wanted to be?

Would you just sit there and wait for something to happen, or would you maybe Ask, someone for Help/Directions, what if their was no one around, again would you just sit there waiting for someone to come along or would you seek someone out who could help you? what if they could not help? would you give up and go home or would you Seek someone else out???

Oh! Snap!! don't look now but here you go A/S/K-ing/doing something you Never do, and not to mention if the GPS takes you to your destination right off or the second set of instruction gets you to your final destination, You still didn't use the scientific method to vet your path, you simply followed directions. Directions like the ones found in Luke 11 (which has been my argument from the beginning that makes the whole first 1/2 of you above quote moot, as you agree with me.)

 If someone gave me a treasure map it would be a novel experience. Has anyone ever given you or anyone you know a treasure map?  It's very oddness would suggest further investigation was needed.  I'd have to ask if they'd already brought back all of the treasure,  and if not, why they were telling me instead of getting all of it themselves.  

You guys are so narrow minded it is like trying to speak to autistic children. If a word as imprinted you with a singular meaning, or Lord help us if you can visualize or manifest only one definition to a word because you have only seen it used in a movie or book only the one way, it's like you have been given permission to go full retard defending your narrow definition. Your minds lock onto your one singular aspect, and you ignore any deeper meaning, because you think you have a complete understanding of that word, and mock those who do not follow your narrow minded definition. What's worse you all don't seem to understand mocking me, for the simplicity of an illustration does not help you. It makes you look like a moron when I take that very simple illustration you have mocked and give you a much deeper meaning than what you yourself was able to derive. What's even worse for you is I am able to take said illustration's simple meaning and show you how it is indeed been already applied into your life.

For instance, the first thing we must address is the full on retard definition of a treasure map and break it down and actually describe what a treasure map is in up dated terms because it is very apparent your mind will not allow you the flexibility to use all the different clues or illustrations I originally presented in my initial argument to give yourself an accurate picture of what is being discussed.

So the very first thing a treasure map is.. is obviously a map. A map detailing the surroundings of a end goal or reward. The next thing a treasure map does is give you a common or easily accessible start point. One that is easy to find, and quickly relateable. then It gives Turn by Turn instructions Instructions to help one find their end goal or Reward.

In essence a treasure map is nothing more than a simple set of instructions giving one a place to start, turn by turn instructions, it can also include landmarks or mile markers to help you see that you are making progress in the right direction with an ultimate reward or sought after pay out at the end.

From that general description here are some examples of what a modern treasure map may look like:
A retirement plan, A career plan or path, Or as I said in my Last post Turn by Turn instructions from a GPS, or in the case of salvation A/S/K. Why didn't/couldn't you see these things as treasure maps? Because you only visualize Pirate treasure as being 'treasure.' when in fact there are 1/2 a dozen meanings to that word treasure. Only one or two agree with what you identify/Have locked onto and ignored all else. This is why/how common sense fails people like you. You lock on to a singular understanding of something and take your base understanding as the only way a given subject can be viewed and when someone trys to show you a different angle it violates what you feel is common sense.

And unlike someone who can show me the treasure they brought back, you can't  show me god, or even any credible evidence that you found him. Or given your description of him, that he'd be a treasure if I found him. 

Again miss narrow mind it completely depends on the 'treasure' found. Pirate treasure can be held, but what if your treasure is Love? Can you hold love? can someone else truly examine what you feel? Again treasure does not have to be tangible.

I do follow directions, particularly if they appear safe and it's easy to see if they work. Just recently, I learned to make Turkish coffee by googling it.  But, I've drunk Turkish coffee before,  and whether the directions worked was easy to ascertain.   It did, by the way, and we've been having it about every third morning ever since. It makes for a luxurious quarter hour before my sweetie heads off to work.  I follow much more onerous directions if I see real need and results.  Our retirement account is an example of such results. 

SMH...
So you are willing to follow complex and burdensome instructions for coffee, and turn your nose at Ask, Seek, Knock for the Holy Spirit.. Something I Have Conclusively shown you have done in your life, so much so you are oblivious to it as it is second nature.

Given the total disdain Christ had for the Hypocrites of the temple for "Trying to remove the speck out of someone else eye while having a plank of wood sticking out of their own" If and or when you stand in judgement before Him how will you possible explain this? That burdensome coffee was worth the effort, yet you applying a second nature method to finding God was too much?

But there are directions my common sense and natural  skepticism tell me are dangerous to follow.  Like your hypothetical treasure map, they are often get rich with little or no effort  schemes.  Or like crystals to adjust my aura,  or your god scheme,  the results are not quantifiable.  If someone adds, that it won't work unless you really want  it to,  all the skeptic buzzers go off. 

wow what presumption.. In order for your 'common sense' to be accurate you must boast knowledge over the defining principles over each of those 'schemes.' If you don't have knowledge or mastery over those principles and yet insist they are invalid or Valid you are not using common sense to make your determination.

You are well wishing, you are fooling yourself into thinking one thing or another, based on what everyone else thinks. This make you a lemming. Do you know what lemmings are?

And before you go off on some ridiculous tangent about needing to want to do something like, playing the piano, quiting smoking or, exercising more, let me note that that has to do with putting in the effort to follow the directions and not if the directions describe anything real. I've taught myself to paint. And yes had to want to learn and practice.  But the results are demonastratable. People can demonstrate piano playing, lack of smoking, exercise, and painting,  see below.  Your god, like my aura remains undemonstrable.  

..So what in your mind makes you think God or rather the Spiritual gifts are not demonstrable? Granted they are focused on the individual, but never the less none less real. Let's say for a moment you were never good in school. matter of fact you could not read. Yet some how years later you found God (still could not read) then after a period of A/S/K-ing God turns on a switch and with in a few short years you go from being nearly illiterate to being given the keys to wisdom so far beyond your scope it literally scares you. That All of your questions about God are answered, not only that you can answer everyone elses. questions and can over turn their objections. On things like evolution verses creation, the Ark, The exodus, a whole pantheon of supposed logical fallacies, and on and on and on. With absolutly no outside influences or formal training.

Then lets say you body circumes to several "death sentence diseases.' AIDS, Cancer, Burst Appendix etc... With no medical treatment what so ever you recover each and every time.

Next let pile on a field trip to Hell. where you get to experience your final judgement, and the fire of hell and what it really means to 'gnash your teeth.'

After that God drops 25K in the way of a loan from a perfect stranger you met in passing once. To start your own business, then you do nothing but your simple job, and you watch it explode around you, and now you not only do commerce on a national scale but an international one as well. after that God puts you and your business in building/location so far out of your scope (best part of town with greater curb appeal and equipment than all of your competitors for less than what anyone else would pay for 1/4 of the space in the wrong part of town.) And On and On Including patents, trucks equipment just anything and everything we could ever need, just when we need it in just the right amount.

Keeping in mind you know who you really are, and are just literally on a ride you have been put on. Not because you deserve or earned anything, but because God saw fit to give it to you.

Again. None of these things God did for me was meant to be proof for you, or really anyone close to me. They were meant for me and me alone. This is my treasure/Love. I experienced all of this and know all of it to be real. the thing is. A/S/K was not directed just at me, but an open invitation to all. Everyone was invited to experience their own version of what I experienced. What God has planned for each of us is meant to mean little to nothing to anyone else, but to us personally it will create and maintain an unbreakable bond.

Frankly, the aura, and god are of a muchness. And while they factually contradict one another both, as well as the truth of the Koran or the Book of Mormon, can be found the same way.  A/S/K is an invitation to invent your own facts,  not a method for finding the truth.  And once they have found such stuff, I don't  see people's lives improving,  but I do see them ignoring or avoiding verifiable facts,  such as the absence of evidence for a world wide flood, which would exist, had it happened. 

Humbleness consists of questioning what you can do and know, not in thinking about superior being loves you and that you know all about that being. 

but that's the thing all of you seem to always get wrong. A/S/K is unique to Christianity. All other religions has their deity funnel instruction through prophets or at the very least priests. In biblical Christianity God wants to deal directly with you/no middle man. Their is a vast difference between hearing the words of a prophet and dealing directly with God the Holy Spirit yourself.

[Drich]

very nice picture!