Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I'm still waiting for you to answer RedBeard's question of why it would be illogical for an omnipotent being to act against its nature.

I demonstrated those reasons in at least three separate responses. He disagrees and I am allowing him to have the last word.

[Time Traveler]

Can I steel this and use it on another forum?  It would drive the xtians crazy.

I think if the xtians start crazy, the only direction they can go is toward sanity... but be my guest.

[Jehanne]

One of the cornerstones of modern apologetics in the fine-tuning argument which, to many theists, leads them to conclude our universe could only have been created by an Intelligent Designer <cough>God</cough>. The argument asserts that if you adjust any of the numerous physical properties, from the mass of subatomic properties to the expansion rate of the universe (and many attributes in between), our universe would be incapable of sustaining life – especially intelligent life (namely humans… give or take). Theists often quote well known scientists who acknowledge the precise parameters our universe seems to conform to (usually neglecting to mention that these scientists don’t draw the same conclusions that they do), solidifying the theists’ conviction that our universe must have been intelligently designed.

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.

As an engineer, I find these arguments pretty funny!

Why?  Alvin Plantinga has stated publicly that god is not an engineer.

[RoadRunner79]

As an engineer, I find these arguments pretty funny!

Why?  Alvin Plantinga has stated publicly that god is not an engineer.

Doesn't change what I said.... (and I would want to see the quote in context, before I made any decisions based on it).

[Jehanne]

Why?  Alvin Plantinga has stated publicly that god is not an engineer.

Doesn't change what I said.... (and I would want to see the quote in context, before I made any decisions based on it).

As others have said, to apply "engineering principles" to a creator god is just absurd.  I work for a prominent engineering company, and in our company handbook, the following appears as an acronym:

ATAMO - And Then A Miracle Occurs

If there was a "creator god" who is at the foundation of all existence, then he/she/it did not need to "fine tune" anything!  He/she/it could have created the Cosmos with whatever "constants" of nature that he/she/it wanted!

[LadyForCamus]

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

lol, nice rebuttal Chad.

[RoadRunner79]

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Doesn't change what I said.... (and I would want to see the quote in context, before I made any decisions based on it).

As others have said, to apply "engineering principles" to a creator god is just absurd.  I work for a prominent engineering company, and in our company handbook, the following appears as an acronym:

ATAMO - And Then A Miracle Occurs

---

If there was a "creator god" who is at the foundation of all existence, then he/she/it did not need to "fine tune" anything!  He/she/it could have created the Cosmos with whatever "constants" of nature that he/she/it wanted!

Including the ones we see in this universe?  

I also, get the feeling, that you are bringing in a number of assumptions to "fine tuning" which aren't necessary.

[Jehanne]

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As others have said, to apply "engineering principles" to a creator god is just absurd.  I work for a prominent engineering company, and in our company handbook, the following appears as an acronym:

---

If there was a "creator god" who is at the foundation of all existence, then he/she/it did not need to "fine tune" anything!  He/she/it could have created the Cosmos with whatever "constants" of nature that he/she/it wanted!

Including the ones we see in this universe?  

I also, get the feeling, that you are bringing in a number of assumptions to "fine tuning" which aren't necessary.

Sure, why not?  Are you saying that such is logically impossible for a god to do?

[Simon Moon]

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As others have said, to apply "engineering principles" to a creator god is just absurd.  I work for a prominent engineering company, and in our company handbook, the following appears as an acronym:

---

If there was a "creator god" who is at the foundation of all existence, then he/she/it did not need to "fine tune" anything!  He/she/it could have created the Cosmos with whatever "constants" of nature that he/she/it wanted!

Including the ones we see in this universe?  

I also, get the feeling, that you are bringing in a number of assumptions to "fine tuning" which aren't necessary.

This universe looks exactly how a universe would look with the properties that would allow life to come about, naturally.

If a god created the universe, the universe could actually have parameters that should not allow life to arise, yet we would still exist. That would be a sign that a god existed.

As far as I can tell, the fine tuning argument argues for a god that is not omni-anything.

For you to claim that the universe is fine tuned by a god, you would have to be able to contrast it with an example of how a universe would look that was not god created. So...go ahead.