Most personally convincing reasons you don't believe.

[pocaracas]

I never said he was a genie, but when you are a child and you are taught that god is everywhere and that he loves you, then you start thinking it's a lie when he sees you getting beat with a belt every day for seven years and he does nothing to stop it. Or better yet... when your grandfather molests you for three years and again, that magical sky daddy who you've been taught to believe can watch over you and protect you... isn't doing what everyone tells you he can do.

He "protects" the majority who don't suffer from such abuses... pretty sweet deal.

[Chad32]

They existed as oral traditions before the bible was made, and many things in the bible are inspired or based off of events older than it is. There are a lot of problems with the bible, factually and morally speaking. This was just the final nail in the coffin for me. Whoever heard of a personal relationship where you have to read a book to understand the person you're supposedly able to speak to yourself?

I completely understand the argument. However there is a problem with it. The "text" that have been proven older than the bible do not lend themselves to the bible stories as promised. The texts that do, have no surviving manuscripts older than the bible. Meaning even IF that particular religion is older the writings of it could have been taken from the bible, not the other way around.

That's unlikely, given that the societies and their religions are older than the bible. Christianty is a young religion, and you can't really get around that.

[Drich]

For -you-....fine, but others don't have that access, so it's not exactly convincing to them.  That;s not difficult to understand, surely?
Promises made vs promises kept. Many of us do not have this access. It doesn't matter why, it doesn't matter how many caveats you add or what they are. We-don't-have-access. It;s difficult to understand how someone would be convinced by something they do not possess, and cannot procure, isn't it?

There is a certain measure of conformity to take advantage of anything this life has to offer. You want to live in a society you have to play by certain rules. You want to A/C and lights at night you have to pay your electric bill, You want to have a car, you have to buy one and maintain it. Nothing is with out cost, nothing in this life worth having is free, there is always a cost even if You are not the one paying for it.

The same is true here.

The 'Cost' we are asked to pay the conformity we must follow is simple humility. to put yourself on God's time frame, and not your own.
This is the electric bill this is the car payment. This is the cost of 'proof.' You must wait and be willing to follow where ever God leads. This is the only reason I 'have access" and you do not.

If you want this access then you will wait and follow if you can't be bothered then your car will be repo'd and your lights shut off.

In the end you will 'wait' the same amount of time whether you believe or not. The only difference is will you come away with God or will you spend your time waiting serving yourself?

Others didn't find what you find, others don't have the access you have.  What convinces you is obviously non-transferable, judging by your -many- attempts to communicate it on these boards.  All that's available to me are the stories...and the stories didn't even convince -you- that took a personal experience.

The 'storys' made me want what those people had. What Solomon had specifically Wisdom and a direct line to God. Then low and behold here is that very thing being offered.

The difference? Again I went where God had me go. I did not hold to my 'zeus/genie' version of God and wait for my version of Him. I went with the guy who I was reading about in the bible. (even though I did not yet agree with Him)

If you grew up in a church, and they do not speak of or descibe the version of God that I have, AND you have never experienced anything like what I have shared, nor has anyone in your church, then perhaps you guys are worshiping a 'zeus' version of God. Again if it is Jesus Christ centered and this is the best your members can do, then it will be enough for salvation. (getting in the door) However if you want the 'fast pass' front line access then you have to do things his way. He will not support a bad or broken 'zeus' version that many religious efforts paint with direct access. Could you imagine how screwed up the world would be if God granted TV preachers the actual powers they claim to Have?

This is why Knocking/Continuing to ask and Seek is so important. Meaning you keep asking question, you keep praying and you keep Reading your bible. Because the picture the bible paints of God is far different than most religious versions. Once you learn to identify God through the bible you will begin to literally see things happening in your life in the same way they happened for others in the bible. Then your life will Never be the Same.

Or you can hold fast to your Zeus version of God because that is the small little box you have given Him in your mind, and just wait and see how long before He will squeeze Himself into the little box you made for Him.

Think about it. If you had the Absolutely Wrong view of God why then would he Answer/grant your wishes/prayers? wouldn't this just cement this bad version of him in your mind?

Jesus Illustrates this principle with the parable of the wise and foolish builders. (Wise man builds his house on the Rock and foolish man builds his house on the sand (because it was easier to build than on rock)

The house we build is our faith/system of belief. If we build on who the bible says Jesus is our faith/belief will weather any storm, however id we build on the sand dry river bed our faith will be swept away by the comming trials/storms.

Many of you believe your atheism is a direct result of logical thinking. I believe it is an answered prayer. Especially if any of you have ever prayed for proof of God as 'christians.' God sent a storm into your lives to remove the house/faith you built on sand. To give you an opportunity to rebuild on Who Christ/God really is. If you start to build on the rock you will find you are not the only one helping you rebuild your 'house.'

[Joods]

I never said he was a genie, but when you are a child and you are taught that god is everywhere and that he loves you, then you start thinking it's a lie when he sees you getting beat with a belt every day for seven years and he does nothing to stop it. Or better yet... when your grandfather molests you for three years and again, that magical sky daddy who you've been taught to believe can watch over you and protect you... isn't doing what everyone tells you he can do.

He "protects" the majority who don't suffer from such abuses... pretty sweet deal.

Right... because, if it doesn't happen and it's not bad, the theist reasoning is that god loves you so much. But if it's bad then they reason that it's all humans fault. Yet, their puny god still can't defend those he supposedly loves.

And yeah, it really pisses me off that I had to put my crap out there like that.

[pocaracas]

Think about it. If you had the Absolutely Wrong view of God why then would he Answer/grant your wishes/prayers? wouldn't this just cement this bad version of him in your mind?

I like this gem. It's amazing! Really!

Think about it!
How about this very powerful being making "me" get the correct view?
If I have the wrong view, maybe... just maybe, it's because someone conned me... would I get to that wrong view by myself? why would God not guide my thoughts to the correct view then? Before I had the wrong view?

God screw up, god no fix it.

[Drich]

I never said he was a genie, but when you are a child and you are taught that god is everywhere and that he loves you, then you start thinking it's a lie when he sees you getting beat with a belt every day for seven years and he does nothing to stop it. Or better yet... when your grandfather molests you for three years and again, that magical sky daddy who you've been taught to believe can watch over you and protect you... isn't doing what everyone tells you he can do.

Yeah. Some god.

It isn't about wishes, drip. It's about the bullshit indoctrination kids are put through and then when bad things happen, god doesn't do his supposed divine thing. It casts all sorts of doubt. Naturally, asking questions about why god never got me away from any of that was something I asked time and time again, but never got an honest answer to. I finally found the answer myself when I learned that it was all bullshit.

Do you think you were molested because your grandfather didn't love you?
Do you think you Were beaten because your father wanted you dead?

Or is it your belief that real love means that nothing bad can ever happen?

Ever watch Dateline or 20/20? If someone was murdered it is always the spouce. if not them then the girlfriend or better yet one of the kids.

Your example is EXACTLY what I meant by viewing God as a Zeus/Genie type. You can't tell me that if your dad was really adept at beating you or your Grandfather was really molesting you for all that time and you could trade 'good deeds or worship' for 'granted wishes' you would have 'wished' your way to a better life.

You were wrongly told God loves you.

God Agape' You. Agape' is a greek word that describes just one aspect of the word love. That aspect of the word love more closely identifies with the 'respect' part of love. In otherwords "God so loves/respects the world that He gave his only son..."

You were looking for a God that "Storge" You. Or protects/Love you like you think a parent should. God does not offer Storge. Infact in this life we are told to expect to be treated harshly. That fact that harsh treatment came from a place where you feel entitled to be safe, is... unfortunate, but our societal entitlements do not mandate God. Why? because we do not live in His world, He gave this one to us and we promptly handed it over to Satan. This world is litterally the closest thing Satan will ever have to a realm under his control, and your life experience is a direct result of that.

God's Agape' offers us a way out of this, that's all. He does not offer protection for All threats in this life or this world. which is why I said you have to be willing to let go your idea of Zeus as God. You can not trade worship for granted prayers or wishes.

[Joods]

I never said he was a genie, but when you are a child and you are taught that god is everywhere and that he loves you, then you start thinking it's a lie when he sees you getting beat with a belt every day for seven years and he does nothing to stop it. Or better yet... when your grandfather molests you for three years and again, that magical sky daddy who you've been taught to believe can watch over you and protect you... isn't doing what everyone tells you he can do.

Yeah. Some god.

It isn't about wishes, drip. It's about the bullshit indoctrination kids are put through and then when bad things happen, god doesn't do his supposed divine thing. It casts all sorts of doubt. Naturally, asking questions about why god never got me away from any of that was something I asked time and time again, but never got an honest answer to. I finally found the answer myself when I learned that it was all bullshit.

Do you think you were molested because your grandfather didn't love you?
Do you think you Were beaten because your father wanted you dead?

Or is it your belief that real love means that nothing bad can ever happen?

Ever watch Dateline or 20/20? If someone was murdered it is always the spouce. if not them then the girlfriend or better yet one of the kids.

First: Are you actually making an excuse for why I was beaten and molested by family members? Second of all - it was my mother's third husband that beat me. My father was too upstanding of a man to ever dare put me through that. Thirdly - the man that beat me stood 6 foot 2 inches tall, was a large, heavy man and the belt he used put welts the size of half dollars on my ass because the holes had to be reinforced with metal grommets to hold up the pants on his fat ass. He didn't beat my sister. He didn't beat his two daughters. He beat ME. On a daily basis. I was a small child compared to his size. What right does a man that size have beating a child of 10 who weighed less than 70 pounds? He was at least 350 pounds.

I was a child when these things happened. My beliefs then were nothing like what they are now. Obviously. Do not insult my intelligence by attempting to question my thoughts as a child and comparing them to my thoughts as an adult.

Dateline and 20/20 specifically select stories about murdered family members that focus solely on another family member that did the killing. That is NOT to say that everyone who gets murdered does so by a family member. Wake up. Your selecting two television shows and mentioning them here has nothing to do with anything being discussed. I didn't say anything about murders so your straw man of that is just stupid.

You have a lot of nerve Dripshit. I mostly tolerate your bullshit, but you have crossed a line and that is unacceptable.

[Drich]

I completely understand the argument. However there is a problem with it. The "text" that have been proven older than the bible do not lend themselves to the bible stories as promised. The texts that do, have no surviving manuscripts older than the bible. Meaning even IF that particular religion is older the writings of it could have been taken from the bible, not the other way around.

That's unlikely, given that the societies and their religions are older than the bible. Christianty is a young religion, and you can't really get around that.

I've said this 3 times now so pay attention:
Again in some cases the religion May indeed be older, BUT THERE ARE NO SURVIVING DOCUMENTS OF THOSE RELIGION OLDER THAN THE BIBLE!!!!

Do you not understand what that means? For instance in the Case of Zoro-ism Their oldest complete manuscript dates all the way back to the 17th century. Their oldest incomplete document (a few pages of their book) is from the 10th century AD.
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroast...cripts.htm

Do you not see what you are claiming of Christianity is most likely true of the religions you said Christianity 'borrows from?'

[Drich]

reposting

[The Grand Nudger]

Many of you believe your atheism is a direct result of logical thinking. I believe it is an answered prayer. Especially if any of you have ever prayed for proof of God as 'christians.' God sent a storm into your lives to remove the house/faith you built on sand. To give you an opportunity to rebuild on Who Christ/God really is. If you start to build on the rock you will find you are not the only one helping you rebuild your 'house.'

Well, I obviously can't speak for "many of us", but personally..I just don't believe,  Never have.  Never prayed for proof, or received a storm in my life, or any of that other nonsense.  As I've been trying to tell you...I've had no access to or interaction with the divine.  And since I don't share the covetous motivations which led you to somehow compel yourself to believe in order to receive reasons to believe, an ability I do not possess in the first place, then the chances of my ever being convinced look pretty slim.  

-now, at first I sliced that whole post up, my usual style... I decided it was too unweidly...but..you do realize that you say some patently batshit crazy things when you talk about gods that atheists worship...or boxes that atheists create for gods they don't believe in...right?  

Look...you're unconvincing.  The stories are unconvincing.  I don't want what you want.  I can't do what you did.  I haven't experienced these things you claim to have experienced.   There are -reasons- that I'm not a christian, but I simply don't believe in gods...and I don't actually -need- a reason for that any more than I need a reason for not doing jumping jacks this very minute. That's just the status of my belief, take it or leave it. Others have done what you did, and I guess it just doesn't work the way you say it does, or at least not all of the time. What else can anyone conclude? I mean sure, you could be a complete tool and strongly insinuate that they're all a bunch of liars who can't get it right...but I;m not sure how convincing that;s supposed to be either.

Have to comment on something up there -

Do you not see what you are claiming of Christianity is most likely true of the religions you said Christianity 'borrows from?

LOL..the irony. You might be right..those traditions might have borrowed from their contemporaries.........that might be something that happens to religious traditions...there may even be a term for it........ I'm sure that your fairy stories are a special case, though.