If Life is Meaningless Anyway, then What's Wrong with Religion?

[FatAndFaithless]

...the definition I gave is the definition by physicians in the Uniform Determination of Death Act.  And it's not the same as a persistent vegetative state - what the layman might call brain dead.

Were not talking about "laymen"

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

I'm not sure what a single case is supposed to prove.  In any case, I think the label in getting in the way of the concept here.  The concept of the consciousness existing after the physical activity of the brain has completely ceased is what we're talking about.  Even in that article it said they detected faint brain waves.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I don't know a single credible NDE researcher who has both collected data and published in peer reviewed journals that does not believe that the best evidence strongly suggests that consciousness survives physical death.

If you want to quibble what death means for research purposes is not having a functional brain that could in any way support  cognitive functions.or regulate bodily processes. Research has shown that NDE experiences happen during that state and not after.

Just trying to parse your position here - are you saying that NDEs are evidence for consciousness survivng physical death?

And I agree, NDEs do happen during the process of death...not after death, hence their name.  So how could NDEs be evidence for what happens after the process of death is complete?

NDE research falsifies the theory that mental experieces are contingent on a functional brain. Since the brain states of people during an NDE are so extremely low as to be nonexistent that is the closest possible, second best, option to study. Now if consciousness is not dependant on the brain that strongly suggests that consciousness can, though perhaps not always, continue beyond actual death. That is what the best researchers believe based on their interpretation of the data. My point is that none of the skeptical critics have performed their own research.

[Cyberman]

Huggy seems to think that unless the doctors can do this:





then they're just giving up too soon.

[FatAndFaithless]

Just trying to parse your position here - are you saying that NDEs are evidence for consciousness survivng physical death?

And I agree, NDEs do happen during the process of death...not after death, hence their name.  So how could NDEs be evidence for what happens after the process of death is complete?

NDE research falsifies the theory that mental experieces are contingent on a functional brain. Since the brain states of people during an NDE are so extremely low as to be nonexistent that is the closest possible, second best, option to study. Now if consciousness is not dependant on the brain that strongly suggests that consciousness can, though perhaps not always, continue beyond actual death. That is what the best researchers believe based on their interpretation of the data. My point is that none of the skeptical critics have performed their own research.

Who are the 'best researchers'? And if the requirement for a functional brain has already been falsified as a necessity for consciousness...why don't most doctors and scientists accept that? What do you think accounts for this resistance to such an obviously-falsified idea?

[Huggy Bear]

Were not talking about "laymen"

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

I'm not sure what a single case is supposed to prove.  In any case, I think the label in getting in the way of the concept here.  The concept of the consciousness existing after the physical activity of the brain has completely ceased is what we're talking about.  Even in that article it said they detected faint brain waves.

They detected brain waves later, not initially.

[brewer]

...the definition I gave is the definition by physicians in the Uniform Determination of Death Act.  And it's not the same as a persistent vegetative state - what the layman might call brain dead.

Were not talking about "laymen"

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

Not enough details to make a determination, but if the doctors based their decision on only CT scans (as the article seems to indicate) then the doctors were in error. It would then not be a case of brain death but incorrect diagnosis.

[brewer]

I'm not sure what a single case is supposed to prove.  In any case, I think the label in getting in the way of the concept here.  The concept of the consciousness existing after the physical activity of the brain has completely ceased is what we're talking about.  Even in that article it said they detected faint brain waves.

They detected brain waves later, not initially.

Did they even look for brain waves initially, prior to the brain dead determination? I don't find that in the article.

[Angrboda]

If you want to qquibble, what death means for research purposes is not having a functional brain that could in any way support  cognitive functions.or regulate bodily processes. Research has shown that NDE experiences happen during that state and not after.

Bollocks. It's unclear what cognitive functioning remains after a cardiac arrest, but to state that research shows that the brain is completely without function is a gross exaggeration. (See for example, my post here.) Animal models clearly show that memory is a product of a functioning brain. That NDErs have memories of their experience is at odds with the notion that the brain is completely without function during that state. Moreover, veridical NDEs at best provide evidence that consciousness and the body can be separated. That's not the same thing as life after death, and it's only survivalists' interpretation that this evidence shows life after death. You've made quite a generalization, unfortunately it rests on very thin ice.

[brewer]

NDE research falsifies the theory that mental experieces are contingent on a functional brain. Since the brain states of people during an NDE are so extremely low as to be nonexistent that is the closest possible, second best, option to study. Now if consciousness is not dependant on the brain that strongly suggests that consciousness can, though perhaps not always, continue beyond actual death. That is what the best researchers believe based on their interpretation of the data. My point is that none of the skeptical critics have performed their own research.

Cite research please. In the research they need to pinpoint the time that the individual experienced the NDE. Not during the deterioration phase prior to the "extremely low as to be nonexistent" function nor during the recovery phase.

[FatAndFaithless]

Plus, is this 'best research' based solely on the subjective, anecdotal reports of the patients after the fact? Because tenuity of any conclusion drawn from that kind of data should be clear..