Game Over for Trump

[The Grand Nudger]

They should be used to doing dirty work for shitty pay that aims to hem brown people in.

[Faith No More]

Hmm...I'm not sure how building a wall would help our drug problem, what with them mostly being prescription meds and all.

Or are we only supposed to be concerned about what those damn Mexicans are bringing over?

[abaris]

Or are we only supposed to be concerned about what those damn Mexicans are bringing over?

That one is easily answered. It's called gross national product. I doubt that Redneck Johnny waving a confederate flag will toil the fields anytime soon for an uninsured pittance. Or clean the toilets of the high and mighty.

[Asmodee]

Nice straw man.  I never said that when I see a gun I "immediately think 'crazy person'", nor did I suggest that were true, nor did I suggest that I was remotely qualified to diagnose tens of thousands of people I've never met,

-didn't you though.........

Um...no.  No I didn't.  If you believe otherwise, quote where I said that I think that "when I see a gun" instead of "the people I know".

nor did I even remotely pretend that suggesting such a thing wouldn't be utterly ludicrous. 

right.....so?

Okay then.

I said it was true OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW who carry, and it is true of ALL the people I know who carry.  And I do mean people I "personally know", as in, "my friends and acquaintances".  I KNOW the guy who shot himself.  He's an idiot.  I KNOW the guy who can point out the RFID chip line in the ACA which isn't there.  He's not nuts, but he's scary close.

Well, maybe there should be a law against the two guys you know carrying a gun to a polling place, then.  /shrugs

Actually, I never brought up anything about polling places.  My comment was actually about too many assholes being able to get permits to carry guns everywhere they go.  And it's more than a little juvenile to suggest that there should be a law against two specific people carrying guns into specific places.

And there should be because gun violence is already a real problem in America and, contrary to the utterly ludicrous claim, the answer to "bad people with guns" is very much NOT "good people with guns" as all the evidence EVER points to.  There were "good people with guns" at the night club in Orlando.  People still got shot.

Meh, there's a narrative about gun violence being a very real problem in america.  Truth is we have a suicide problem, that;s 6/10 of gun deaths, and a drug war problem..the remaining 4.  So unless you're worried about some guy offing himself at the polls, or a meth war breaking out at the lever...I'm not sure why our -actual- gun problem is relevant

Wait, wait, wait.  You are telling me that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of gun deaths are suicide and meth heads???  Let me check the math here....6/10 are suicides....the remaining 4 is drugs....that sure seem to add up to 100%.  At least you have an objective opinion here, not at all tainted by bullshit statistics you just pull right out of your ass or anything.

So, what exactly are "the things I worry about" that are already illegal anyway?  I don't remember telling you what "the things I worry about" were.

Apparently, that crazies and or dummies would show up to a polling place with a gun and hurt somebody - which is already illegal...and nothing to do with a polling place.  It;s illegal -everywhere-. 

Oh, "apparent", is it?  Well it is "apparent" to me that you would be wrong.  Hey, you want to know why it's apparent to me?  Because we are talking about the things "I" worry about and not the things "you" worry about.  Maybe I'm just fooling myself into believing that I know more about me than you do, though.

And it's illegal.  Well, that will stop all the crazies and criminals for doing it!  Problem fucking solved!  Good work, buddy!

You are seriously projecting here, pretending you know more about me than you possibly could.  You are also seriously exaggerating what I said and claimed.  If you want to have an intelligent conversation, I'm all for that.  But don't put words in my mouth and don't pretend that you could possibly know "the things I worry about".  A serious conversation is an honest conversation and nothing in your reply was remotely honest.

If you say so.  

Yes, I do say so.

[The Grand Nudger]

Wait, wait, wait.  You are telling me that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of gun deaths are suicide and meth heads???  Let me check the math here....6/10 are suicides....the remaining 4 is drugs....that sure seem to add up to 100%.  At least you have an objective opinion here, not at all tainted by bullshit statistics you just pull right out of your ass or anything.

Sure do, but only if you accept cdc and doj stats and decades of reporting by organizations like the new york times as objective.  The reason we have a gun problem in this country is that we can't get anti-gun folks to focus on the gun problem in this country...even though they seem to be, and see themselves as, the ones most motivated to solve it.  You've got google, let wonder lead you to knowledge.


I hope you don't mind that I snipped the rest, I don't feel like bickering with you over irrelevancies, or backtracking you through every jot and tittle of your statements.  It would be tiresome. The forums exist, the posts are there. Good enough for me.

[Crossless2.0]

Or are we only supposed to be concerned about what those damn Mexicans are bringing over?

That one is easily answered. It's called gross national product. I doubt that Redneck Johnny waving a confederate flag will toil the fields anytime soon for an uninsured pittance. Or clean the toilets of the high and mighty.

If they ever did deport all the undocumented people and built the wall, I guarantee the Trump supporters would be among the first to start bitching about the increase in produce prices and the lack of off-the-book laborers to work on and in their homes.

It all reminds of a film that came out several years ago: A Day Without a Mexican

[The Grand Nudger]

We'd have to rethink the construction and ag industries for sure.  Thing is, though, is it really okay to put illegals to work for sub minimum wages and fail to pay taxes -etc- on their labor?  Probably not, so it seems like we're going to have to rethink those industries regardless of whether we build an impossible wall or boot out all the mexicans we couldn't find in the first place.

[Crossless2.0]

We'd have to rethink the construction and ag industries for sure.  Thing is, though, is it really okay to put illegals to work for sub minimum wages and fail to pay taxes -etc- on their labor?  Probably not, so it seems like we're going to have to rethink those industries regardless of whether we build an impossible wall or boot out all the mexicans we couldn't find in the first place.

Agreed. But this is an issue that Trump's rhetoric doesn't even remotely address. And the mainstream political establishment on both sides of the aisle have played footsie with agricultural interests and whatever the Chamber of Commerce endorses for so long that I don't see any real hunger or will for change there, either.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nope, all the change on that front is coming from the bottom up.  I was particularly surprised at the bipartisanship at the level that I operate at.  We expected a bunch of liberals and blue state snowbirds...we certainly catered our model to that...but for the longest time the majority of our business was with far right conservatives.  If I had to pin it down without aggrandizing either side of the aisle, I'd say that alternative ag has certain confluences of interest.  

The far right, for example, liked to see that a white person was capable of making a living and providing a quality product at an affordable price without subsidy.  It helped them kindle the dream of the small american farmer, the bedrock of their cultural appraisal of the US.  The left saw what w did as a scathing critique of anyone who claimed that you -had- to work sub minimum wage slaves to death 1k miles away to get a tomato to market. That they weren;t complete rubes for believing in -some- of the things they believed in.  We split the baby between them by being sustainable, but not organic...which is both a pro and a con for either side simultaneously, lol.

Personally, I think that the only real means of effecting change we have on this (and many other issues) is to completely opt out of the top down idea.  The npotion that if we can just get our boy/girl elected we'll get what we want, and go get it ourselves.  Let those up at the top catch up. Though I suppose the solidarity required to effect change in that manner is constantly undercut by the bickering and baiting that rolls down from on high.

[Crossless2.0]

Rhythm, I had forgotten about your involvement in alternative ag. I think it's an exciting and necessary area of innovation and entrepreneurial opportunity. If successful on a wide scale, it would shatter the current paradigm to everyone's benefit. I wish you well with your venture.