Question For Fellow Atheists...

[robvalue]

You don't want us to tolerate it? What does that mean? Please be specific.

Yeah, it would probably be better if everyone was better grounded in reality. But you're talking like we can make all the theists drop their belief if we all feel really strongly about it, or something.

I'm trying to understand your position. Having a desire for something is fine, but you need a plan to go with it or else it's just daydreaming. I understand your frustration. I find religious belief as stupid as you. It's just we live in this world together, and we need to find a way forward together, including living with theists. I appreciate that's a lot harder when you're surrounded by them. I'm lucky to be in a country where religion is dying. Maybe you should consider moving, for your own sanity!

My plan, as far as I can influence matters at all, is to encourage rational thought, expose bad ideas, speak out against harm and religious privilege, but also to promote kindness and understanding. What else do you suggest, in practical terms?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a theist is not just their religious beliefs. They are a person, and they have reasons for their beliefs. We don't consider them good reasons, but it's not for us to tell people what reasons are good enough. We can give our opinion, but we can't force it. If they are being a dick, then that can and should be called out. But that goes for everyone.

[Whateverist]

Well, it's like I've already said, I have no problem with diversity, differences of ideas or opinions.  That's how the human race advances.  I just think we'd be better off if everyone could at least just acknowledge reality.  The 'hocus-pocus' believing in a god stuff might have been understandable a few hundred years ago, but there's no rational reason for it today.  I fail to understand what possible benefit or advantage it is to mankind to continue to tolerate religious belief...

Do you believe mankind has a manifest destiny?  Is it clear cut to you what would count as progress for the human race?  What would "benefit mankind" depends entirely on what people desire to transpire.  If there is any consensus regarding the benefit all people would desire it sure isn't obvious to me.  Or do you think what is of benefit to mankind is an objective fact?

[robvalue]

Here's the thing:

Either theists are deluded, or atheists are. Putting things very roughly, that is the case.

Us atheists know that the theists are deluded. However, theists also know that us atheists are deluded.

Simply declaring how right we are is of no value. Both sides can do that. All we can do is offer arguments and evidence, and hope the other side comes round to our way of thinking. But ultimately, you have to accept that people are going to disagree about things. Small things, and big things. And there is no humane way of stopping this.

What is important is actions, at the end of the day. As far as I'm concerned, people can believe what they want, right up until the point where they are being a dick. Then, I don't care what your beliefs are, I want you to stop being a dick. Stop hurting people, stop forcing your beliefs on people, stop hassling people, whatever.

[Whateverist]

Here's the thing:

Either theists are deluded, or atheists are. Putting things very roughly, that is the case.

And yet the situation often feels like this from the Martian Chronicles.  (Skip to 0:52 seconds.)

[robvalue]

When I say "atheists are deluded", I mean to say that we are failing to notice something extremely obvious. The existence of God is obvious, as obvious as gravity. This is the theist point of view, speaking in very general terms.

Theists are deluded because they are noticing something that isn't there, or at least there's not a good enough reason to think it's there. This is the atheist point of view.

So it seems to me that either I'm deluded, or the average theist is. Who is right? Me of course. And them.

[energizer bunny]

I just think we'd be better off if everyone could at least just acknowledge reality. 

Well, the reality is, people believe in god and cling to their religious beliefs. God is a reality to some and isn't to others. Best to just accept and acknowledge that.

[Autolite]

You don't want us to tolerate it? What does that mean? Please be specific.

Well it's like I've already said. We should afford Theists no more credibility or legitimacy than someone who believes in Leprechauns, The Tooth Fairy or flying pink invisible unicorns. You wouldn't respect any adult who really believes in Santa Claus so why should we afford respect to an adult who believes in a completely fictitious god?

I'm not sure that I can be more specific than that. I'll get back to you if I can figure a way to make my point any clearer...

[robvalue]

You want me not to respect theists at all, I think that's what you're saying? Like, have no interest in anything they have to say about anything? Treat them like a crazy person? I already make it very clear that I don't respect theistic beliefs, at all.

I can view people in different ways. People are complex. My wife believes in ghosts, for example. I think that's totally nuts. It's crazy, unfounded and unsupportable. She knows that is my opinion. But it's only one aspect of her as a person. And since this belief doesn't meaningfully affect any other parts of her personality or ability to function, it makes no difference to me.

I don't respect her belief in ghosts. But I respect her as a person. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. She's perfectly sane, of course. Sane people can have irrational beliefs.

[The Grand Nudger]

Perfectly sane...is she watching you type or something?  

@Autolite, sounds like what I already do. I mean, honestly, if I find out that an adult believes in santa, or god..I'd be lying if I said it didn't diminish my respect for them to some extent. Thankfully, that doesn;t make any one person different from any other person..as there are plenty of ways to lose whatever smidgeon god and santa cause in people who -don't- believe in god and santa.

[Whateverist]

When I say "atheists are deluded", I mean to say that we are failing to notice something extremely obvious. The existence of God is obvious, as obvious as gravity. This is the theist point of view, speaking in very general terms.

I agree.  God obviously exists in the experience of theists.

Theists are deluded because they are noticing something that isn't there, ..

I prefer to say they definitely experience something, but they misattribute it to something 'out there' and objective when it is entirely subjective*.  They obviously recognize the 'out there'/objective designation is problematic because they have to invent an entirely new branch of objective reality which they call 'the supernatural' in order to protect this 'god' from falsification by ordinary empirical means.

or at least there's not a good enough reason to think it's there. This is the atheist point of view.

I agree except I prefer to shift the argument away from whether or not this objective-but-supernatural god exists at all.  I'm happy to concede it exists but the question is the nature of its existence.  Then the usual personal reasons cited for belief in this god are no problem.  Of course they have those experiences, they just don't validate an objective god (nor its special supernatural habitat).

So it seems to me that either I'm deluded, or the average theist is. Who is right? Me of course. And them.

Yes, you (we) are right but only so long as we are arguing against an objective, stand-alone entity and not something else which clearly does exist - unless all those theists are not only deluded but out-of-touch crazy.


*Just to be clear, by "entirely subjective" I am not talking about a deliberate lie.  There is more to the subjective than just our conscious machinations.  God isn't our deliberate creation.  Rather, the same brain machinery which runs Robvalue2.0 can be nurtured to also run God.1 without Robvalue2.0 ever being any the wiser.