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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 3:27 pm
(This post was last modified: July 28, 2022 at 3:49 pm by R00tKiT.)
(July 22, 2022 at 4:03 am)Deesse23 Wrote: (July 21, 2022 at 5:34 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: That's a fact. Read the verse, "And We created from water every living thing" (21:30) for example. According to the biological classification known as the two-domain system, all living organisms are either:
..... living organisms are largely made of water.
This fact couldn't have been known by anyone in the prophet PBUH's time, and it could have been easily falsified. There is nothing left to say, this verse is a miracle. "We created from water every living thing" = every living thing is largely water
The only miracle is why you have such low standards to believe in stupid shit, any why you have such a strong drive to reconcile this shit with what we know to be true.
Bold mine. You're obviously quoting me out of context, your blatant dishonesty above is the reason why you see (and many like you) a contradiction in every Qur'anic verse.
It's enough for this verse to be plausibly considered a miracle, that every living organism is composed of water. Read again: every organism. This information is not available to anybody, even now, if they don't have the suitable equipment.
(July 22, 2022 at 4:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: Because he thinks that, back then, this was not known to humanity, unless it was handed down from a higher power.
The fact that bacteria and eukaryotic cells (which are the only two domains of life) contain water was obviously not known to humanity. And it's not knowable by reasoning alone that all lifeforms are made of water. You need knowledge of modern cell biology and lab equipment for that.
(July 22, 2022 at 4:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: As if populations didn't gather around bodies of water for a reason during the previous thousands of years. As if ancient Greeks didn't already postulate that water was key to life.
The ancient greeks also believed that the four classical elements explain all existence.
Populations gathering around water just means that.. they were gathering around water, not that they claimed every lifeform is composed of water.
Do you want to share any more moronic statements ?
(July 22, 2022 at 4:59 am)pocaracas Wrote: 'water is the source of all life'
attributed to Thales of Miletus (624-546 BC)
Check your sources, Thales claimed that everything originates from water, not just lifeforms. He thought water changes into fire, air and fire.
You can see that the Islamic prophet was more careful and knowledgeable than you , a guy with an internet connexion living in the 21st century, with unlimited access to any information, when he purportedly made up the Qur'an from greek sources.. lol.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 4:04 pm
(This post was last modified: July 28, 2022 at 4:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
But not more careful or more knowledgeable than the next long dead greek, which magic book liberally lifts from, and gets as wrong as, those long dead greeks.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 4:44 pm
(July 28, 2022 at 3:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's enough for this verse to be plausibly considered a miracle, that every living organism is composed of water. Read again: every organism. This information is not available to anybody, even now, if they don't have the suitable equipment.
Quran, just like Bible, claims that God created the universe in six days. Earth is created on the first day. Four days later, God creates the sun, moon, and stars. And other nonsenses.
Talking about the water part in Quran is very imprecise so it could mean anything. You claim that it means that people are made from water, but humans are made of lots of things, not just water. So it seems it's just your confirmation bias for which you are being arrogant about it by calling other people morons for not believing you.
Indeed, using confirmation bias with arrogance, any creation myth can be "true".
Take an ancient Chinese myth which tells us that everything started in chaos. The universe was like a black egg (a black hole?). A god named Pan Gu, wielding an axe, breaks the egg and the heavens begin to expand. The fleas and lice on Pan Gu's body evolve into humankind.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 4:57 pm
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:00 pm
Yeah what would desert nomads, familiar with the practice of sucking water out of the flesh of desert plants, know about this?
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:11 pm
Yes because living in a desert teaches nothing about the value of water and where to get it .....Had to be god magic ....
"Change was inevitable"
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:11 pm
(July 28, 2022 at 4:44 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Quran, just like Bible, claims that God created the universe in six days. Earth is created on the first day. Four days later, God creates the sun, moon, and stars.
And why do you consider this to be a mistake? The duration of a day in these verses isn't the one we're familiar with, it could be any arbitrary duration that only God knows, the theist can legitimately argue along these lines.
But there is one thing that doesn't change, even if the durations are disagreed upon: ratios of durations !
With this in mind, some muslim apologists went further and turned the tables, there is a numerical miracle in the verses about creation :
Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. (9)
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance). (10)
Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." (11)
So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. (12)
[7-9,10,11,12]
From these verses we learn that :
(1) In the first two days of creation (out of 6): God created the Earth.
(2) In the first four days of creation (which overlap with the first two days above): God bestowed mountains, and various sources of nourishment and blessings.
(3) In the last two days (out of 6): He completed the heavens as seven firmaments.
The two last statements can easily be misunderstood, especially when the verse is not read in Arabic. The statement (1) however is clear and incontrovertible, it can't be interpreted in any other way, the age of the Earth is 2/6 that of the creation as a whole (e.g. the universe), and 2/6 is 1/3.
We now know that the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years, and that of the universe is is approximately 13.7 billion years, the ratio 4.5/13.7 (=0.328...) is very close to 1/3.
If we take more decimals in the ratio from available data 4.543/13.787 = 0.3295.., we only get closer and closer to 1/3.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:13 pm
IDK that I'd call it a legitimate argument so much as explicit acknowledgement that magic book got that wrong.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:23 pm
(This post was last modified: July 28, 2022 at 5:28 pm by R00tKiT.)
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
July 28, 2022 at 5:27 pm
(This post was last modified: July 28, 2022 at 5:39 pm by The Architect Of Fate.)
He never claimed they did this. He was pointing out that no one needed a god to learn this stuff and it's possible he honestly attributed his own understanding to a revelation from god. Either way, something perfectly within human reason and understanding within that time is hardly miraculous. And even if the idea had been copied from the greeks and elsewhere there is no reason to think they had a complete understanding of what they knew with more than covers why they could have gotten some ideas they copied wrong or only got parts right.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM
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