Posts: 67542
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:10 pm
Well, it's all pointless..... in some of the most popular forms of pantheism. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 41
Threads: 1
Joined: June 22, 2017
Reputation:
0
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:14 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 3:54 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: So what point are you trying to make, exactly? Your posts have been confusing, rambling, and irrelevant. Can you just, please, clearly and concisely state the point you're trying to make. For all our sake.
Yes of course.
1. Initially I was interested to know what's an Atheist's assertion.
2. I learned that many assert "I don't believe in any gods"
3. This seemed to me to be a nonsensical proposition, because I knew that god can refer to something which's existence cannot be negated. Like the universe.
4. So I thought maybe it's a good idea to discuss it with you guys to clarify it together, whether the proposition is nonsensical in some cases or not
5. We followed the discussion with Khemikal who believed the proposition is ok and not nonsensical
6. At the end there seems to be a degree of agreement with some of us, but I couldn't reach a unanimous conclusion with Khemikal and we maintained our initial positions at the end
7. A good conclusion could be don't say "I don't believe in any gods". Because it's logically flawed. If you followed my reasoning. OR it's perfectly fine to say "I don't believe in any gods". if you followed Khemikal's reasoning.
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
150
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:18 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 3:36 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: Quote:Just read the first page. I don't usually begin by saying I don't believe in gods. My first question is what's a god? I can't very well define for you what gods I don't believe in when I have no idea what we're even talking about. You show me a god, I'll tell you if I believe in it. But so long as it stays hypothetical then, nope, I don't believe in silly stuff.
I think this is a valid position. My argument is about this assertion "No god exists, whatever it might be" which doesn't seem to be yours.
It is not my position. I think anthropologically the importance of gods is a valid question. Literal belief in such a thing is silly, but a strident stance of disbelief also looks a little silly.
Any chance you'd like to say more about your own thoughts regarding the phenomenon of god belief?
Posts: 67542
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:19 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 4:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 23, 2017 at 4:14 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: 3. This seemed to me to be a nonsensical proposition, because I knew that god can refer to something which's existence cannot be negated. Like the universe. You believed..not knew, but believed that your beliefs -about- the universe or god or a coke can could not be negated. Surprise!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 28609
Threads: 527
Joined: June 16, 2015
Reputation:
89
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:36 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 4:14 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: (June 23, 2017 at 3:54 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: So what point are you trying to make, exactly? Your posts have been confusing, rambling, and irrelevant. Can you just, please, clearly and concisely state the point you're trying to make. For all our sake.
Yes of course.
1. Initially I was interested to know what's an Atheist's assertion.
2. I learned that many assert "I don't believe in any gods"
3. This seemed to me to be a nonsensical proposition, because I knew that god can, but does not necessarily, refer to something which's existence cannot be negated. Like the universe.
4. So I thought maybe it's a good idea to discuss it with you guys to clarify it together, whether the proposition is nonsensical in some cases or not
5. We followed the discussion with Khemikal who believed the proposition is ok and not nonsensical
6. At the end there seems to be a degree of agreement with some of us, but I couldn't reach a unanimous conclusion with Khemikal and we maintained our initial positions at the end
7. A good conclusion could be don't say "I don't believe in any gods". Because it's logically flawed. If you followed my reasoning. OR it's perfectly fine to say "I don't believe in any gods". if you followed Khemikal's reasoning.
Red mine.
There, fixed for you. Your claim that the universe = god is incorrect. Might as well claim a rock = god.
Oh, and guess what. You can't argue something into existence. There is no logical fallacy. Your fantasy remains a fantasy.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
Posts: 8304
Threads: 40
Joined: March 18, 2014
Reputation:
54
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:37 pm
(June 23, 2017 at 3:07 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: In the above argument X is god, therefore we must seek the definitions of god. We are not concerned with the definitions of the universe.
Bullshit you disingenuous mother-fucker. You are very much trying to define the universe as gawd. To claim that you are "not concerned with the definitions of the universe" is just plain bullshit.
Show some evidence that the universe=gawd or piss off.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
Posts: 19648
Threads: 177
Joined: July 31, 2012
Reputation:
91
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 4:54 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 5:09 pm by pocaracas.)
(June 23, 2017 at 4:14 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: 3. This seemed to me to be a nonsensical proposition, because I knew that god can refer to something which's existence cannot be negated. Like the universe.
I don't get it.... why are words being played with?
So, there's some group of people who decided to call the Universe "god"... Talk about overloading the word!
These people came relatively recently... at a time when the word "god" already had a meaning... not a very well defined meaning, but a meaning.
This overloading only serves to confuse the matter...
But these pantheists are hardly being innovative.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
God becomes a word. A mere word. What does that word mean? anything, it seems:
- creator of the Universe
- love
- consciousness
- life
- beauty
etc etc etc
Some of these things demonstrably exist... some aren't demonstrable.
The thing is that the word "god" can even be an umbrella word that encompasses all the definitions.
God is love - you believe love exists, right?! right! then you believe god exists, too.... and then begins the slippery slope where one would say "but god is also [whatever]". And then you must go back to the start, because then the sentence "god is love" is clearly no longer valid.
Then the argument goes on to say, but "god IS love.... and much much more"... and that 'much more' is what becomes unbelievable (word chosen on purpose - guess why)
That's why people told you on page one stuff like:
love is love
life is life
consciousness is consciousness
the Universe is the Universe
etc etc
Words matter.
If a word can be made to mean nearly anything, then it is a useless word... or one comparable to "everything".
Everything exists. Everything is the greatest. Everything is the word. Everything is love. Everything is hate...? yeah, it doesn't work.
Everything is the Universe... well yes, as far as we can tell. There could be more than the Universe, but we can't tell, so better keep that in the realm of speculation.
So we already have two words to describe everything.... one is a bit vague - everything - the other is a bit more scientific - Universe.
Why would we latch on here a word that traditionally has a very different meaning?... like anything out of or beyond the Universe. The purpose of this can only be to confuse the matter and lead people into the slippery slope I mentioned above and which's failure can be spotted by any thinking mind.
Posts: 67542
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 5:04 pm
That's the really fun thing about universes or cosmos...they would contain -within- them any existent gods and whatever else existed. That's just what the word explicitly means.
I don't think that anyone would have any trouble distinguishing myself from the house I live in...lol, at least I hope not.
I think yall gave him too much leeway with the old "that word god is poorly defined" song and dance...see....see how it causes you strife, not convenience?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 41
Threads: 1
Joined: June 22, 2017
Reputation:
0
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 5:34 pm by nosferatu323.)
Quote:There, fixed for you. Your claim that the universe = god is incorrect. Might as well claim a rock = god.
Oh, and guess what. You can't argue something into existence. There is no logical fallacy. Your fantasy remains a fantasy.
I think I explained that it was not my intention to bring god into existence. Also you cannot say rock=god because that's not in any established dictionary, encyclopedia or source of knowledge. You cannot play with words. You need to refer to dictionaries, encyclopedia and other sources of knowledge to understand the meaning of words. In some cases like god, the definitions can vary drastically.
Quote:Bullshit you disingenuous mother-fucker. You are very much trying to define the universe as gawd. To claim that you are "not concerned with the definitions of the universe" is just plain bullshit.
Show some evidence that the universe=gawd or piss off.
Ok. I'm not intending to continue this further as I have no more points to make here. But I think I'm somehow responsible to respond to the posts that expect an answer from me. So I will answer the posts that require an answer. Hope that won't make you more upset.
Quote:Everything is the Universe... well yes, as far as we can tell. There could be more than the Universe, but we can't tell, so better keep that in the realm of speculation.
So we already have two words to describe everything.... one is a bit vague - everything - the other is a bit more scientific - Universe.
Why would we latch on here a word that traditionally has a very different meaning?... like anything out of or beyond the Universe. The purpose of this can only be to confuse the matter and lead people into the slippery slope I mentioned above and which's failure can be spotted by any thinking mind.
You see, I simply used an encyclopedia to bring into attention some of the definitions of god that can be found there, and are clearly existent. In fact these definitions are not "traditional" they are widely believed in our time. Mostly in east. My personal belief is of this kind also. Again I did not want to prove that god exists or prove my belief is true. I just wanted to inform people here that there are people who believe in a god whose existence cannot be negated. Also the "much much more argument" was not used. A definition of god which clearly states "god is identical with the universe" not "god includes universe" was used throughout the discussion.
Again I appreciate everyone's answer. People are starting to get angry with my posts I guess because they feel I'm dishonest, deceitful, etc. which is something I would rather prevent. So let's end the discussion here. Cheers.
Posts: 9147
Threads: 83
Joined: May 22, 2013
Reputation:
45
RE: A Question From Atheists
June 23, 2017 at 5:56 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2017 at 5:59 pm by bennyboy.)
(June 23, 2017 at 3:52 pm)nosferatu323 Wrote: (June 23, 2017 at 3:38 pm)Cyberman Wrote: If he wants to define the god we don't believe in as the Universe, I'm okay with that. My response would be to agree that it does indeed exist; but I would dismiss the claim that it is a god. That's the part for which I would need to see some evidence - but since he's shooting his own argument through the head by insisting he doesn't need to show evidence, that really is the end of the conversation.
A common misunderstanding in a theist/atheists conversation is that the theist ones always intend to "convert" the atheist ones or vice-versa. This was never my intention. I'm not intending to prove to you that god exists or your should believe in god. I wanted to demonstrate that the proposition:
"I don't believe in any gods"
Is nonsensical from a logical perspective. Since when we investigate the word "god" we come across the cases where this proposition leads to clear fallacies.
I made the mistake of talking about my personal beliefs in several occasions which might have been mis-leading for some that I'm trying to justify my own belief, which is not the case. I'm sorry about that.
Quote:But your argument isn't "Pantheists believe that the universe is god." Everyone already accepts that Pantheists believe this. You're asserting that the universe is in fact god - which is something that you need to justify.
No I'm not intending to prove that. I'm sorry if my lack of focus on the main topic made you to believe that I'm intending to prove that. I actually think it's logically absurd to try to "prove" such a belief.
Not really. "I don't believe in any gods" doesn't mean "I disbelieve all possible definitions of god." It means somebody doesn't have any image or definition of "god" which they think represents fact.
If you say God is John Lennon, then I'd say I believe in God, but it's a pretty poor definition.
Saying "God is the Universe" is also a poor definition. You'd have to show that the Universe has at least some of the characteristics normally associated with God-- like consciousness, intent, etc. Otherwise, there's very little importance to the God idea, since we are perfectly happy living in, and studying scientifically, the Universe.
|
