Better terminology for "Father and Son" ?

[Ravenshire]

For clarification before I respond to this, do you believe that the personality, the essential "you" is a product of the soul?

This is a discussion that could get very involved, I'll give you the short of it. The Bible states time and again that God looks at the heart of man, not his physical body, that includes the brain. The soul is the heart of man, it is who we are. God made the body but created the soul and thus the soul last forever. We do not need the body to be us. The soul is an entity separate from the entire physical body. Hope all this makes sense for you.

In light of the bolded passages above, it makes no sense at all. How do you explain the very real cases of personality changes in people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries? If the soul is "who we are" and it is "separate from the entire body," how can a brain injury cause us to become different people?

Alterations in personality and behavior following traumatic brain injury (TBI) are examined in a review of the literature. Research suggests that changes in personality and behavior could be caused by the injury at an organic level, as well as the patient's response to the injury and the subsequent deficits that are experienced.

How can something completely separate from the physical body be affected in any way by a physical injury?

God doesn't treat people like rubbish, people choose hell and God gives them what they chose. If they do not want to spend eternity with God then He will not force them. The scriptures tell us once a person dies his/her chances are over, that's the end point, you're judged and given the punishment you chose for disobedience. God deals in eternal things not temporal.

GC

So, after 80 years or so (I use that number since it's the reasonable expectation for a "normal" life span), if we haven't "found gawd," we're fucked. Even those of us who earnestly sought and never received an answer? That is not the action of a "loving gawd," nor is it the act of a "just gawd." If any god exists, I'll bet you wouldn't recognize it if it came up and introduced itself. The gawd you describe is a petulant child that murders it's pets for displeasing it.

So, an eternal being gives us just 80 years or so to figure it out. If we don't do so to it's satisfaction we "choose" hell. Hell is an infinite punishment for a finite crime. Is that about right?

 You use the phrase "figure it out," I find that strange because it sounds like one has to use a standard method to come to know God. It happens in many different ways for many different people. You might get tired of hearing Drich saying seek Him out, but it is true and that simple. People try and over complicate the process, you see God made it simple because there are those who for the lack of a better phrase, simple minded and can't process complicated things. This is a spiritual process not one of the mind, hope that covers the 80 years. The only requirement for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ for who He is and what He did for us and it was done of His on free will. You like me have never really had to choose hell, it was our eternal destination. We choose to be freed from that destination through the work of Jesus Christ. You have to understand that God only deals in the eternal because He is eternal and any sin that one commits is eternal because it's against the eternal God. If sin goes unforgiven the sin remains for eternity. Christ died and took our punishment so we wouldn't have to suffer that punishment and God says we have to accept who Christ is and what He did on our behalf to receive that forgiveness. So nothing is finite with God, He created an eternal soul and that will be judged or forgiven according to our choice, this is one choice God will not make for any man, it belongs to each of us alone. Have a good weekend.

GC

Yes, I used "figure it out" as a shorthand term. As I've told you in the past and as I've told drippy, I did seek. With every fiber of my being, on bended knee I sought. I cried out in prayer. I wanted to believe. Who wouldn't want to given all the claims made by you religious folk. Your books tells us to "Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be given unto you." The problem is, I sought and found nothing. I asked and was given nothing.

You've got this sick, twisted belief burning inside you that we are all somehow worthy of hell, no matter what. That we are, in a sense, branded by "sin." Is it really because (allegedly) some nekkid lady picked a choice bit of fruit and ate it, gaining the knowledge of good and evil by doing so? Or, is it just a made up disease, created for the sole purpose of selling you the only cure?

GC, your belief in an ancient war god and it's alleged progeny has you by the short and curlies. You claim to have an open mind, so I'm going to make you a challenge. For one month, direct all your prayers, all your devotion, all your faith and all your belief to a gallon jug of milk. I'm betting that all your returns will be exactly the same as they are now.

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In another post you denied being a science denier. Have you come around on the subject of evolution yet?

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You are not worthy of hell, GC. No matter what you done or haven't done. No one is ever deserving of eternal suffering. Throw off your shackles and lose your fear. There's nothing to be afraid of.

[Harry Nevis]

You have the choice of Jesus if you will take it, and what do you mean your inability to be a scapegoat, nowhere in the bible does it say man will be a scapegoat. You are suppose to learn the lessons here, not after you die.

But I don't.  I can't choose to believe or accept something as supposedly important and life-changing as christianity when I see no evidence or proof, and delve into the history of christianity and see how the believers lie and misrepresent to further their cause.  That's one of the lessons I've learned here.

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Prove that your god exists, without using the Bible.

I do not have to, all I'm required to do is tell people why I believe. It is and always has been God's responsibility to prove himself to people, you went to church you should know this. 
 

So, it ISN't our choice, but god's?

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No credible contemporaneous secular evidence for such a person.  Earliest reports are from the Gospels, which were written approximately 2 generations after the alleged events, and the Gospels don't even agree with one another -- not even the synoptic ones, and definitely not gJohn (which reads like a bunch of mystical blather someone pulled out of his ass after hearing a few Jesus fables).

You know why, God wanted it that way. Faith first, then belief, then knowledge. Salvation comes before the knowledge is given. John's book is a spiritual account of Christ, unfortunately you can't see this. I do not understand why you are so hostile toward God and His people?

So, the bible is personally inaccurate by god's will.  So we will read it and have faith.  I'm sure you don't see how stupid this sounds.  Or how desperate.

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I do not want eternal life, and I reject substitutionary atonement absolutely.  No one -- not even your evil god's mini-me Jesus -- dies in my place for any reason whatsoever.  Punishing one person for the crimes of another is always unjust, regardless of the circumstances.

Jesus chose it, why can't you see that. I would die for my love ones for the reason Jesus died for you, LOVE. God did not punish Jesus, man did that, God allowed what Christ chose to do.

He took a 3-day break.  A little different then the death of a mortal.  And god allowed what god chose to do? Meh.

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You can pay for them and will as long as they go unforgiven. People commit crimes all the time without getting caught, they did not pay the penalty but they did the crime, that puts your argument on this to rest. Not trying to be smart... just saying. Like i have said time and again God is eternal and all sin is against His eternal nature and thus judgment is eternal. He will simply forgive you if you will accept what Christ did, not just on the cross but the entire time He was on earth.

Why should I trust a god who blackmails people to throw away reason and believe without evidence?

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For clarification before I respond to this, do you believe that the personality, the essential "you" is a product of the soul?

This is a discussion that could get very involved, I'll give you the short of it. The Bible states time and again that God looks at the heart of man, not his physical body, that includes the brain. The soul is the heart of man, it is who we are. God made the body but created the soul and thus the soul last forever. We do not need the body to be us. The soul is an entity separate from the entire physical body. Hope all this makes sense for you.

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Nope. No sense at all.  And it doesn't make sense to you, either.  You just ate it up with a spoon to satify some emotional void.

[Godscreated]

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I do not have to {prove God is real}, all I'm required to do is tell people why I believe. It is and always has been God's responsibility to prove himself to people, you went to church you should know this.

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I only went to Sunday School a few times because a friend of mine was going.  Got bored and dropped out.

Since your imaginary friend doesn't seem to be interested in proving its existence to me, I'm not interested in looking for it either.  I'm proceeding on the assumption that it's imaginary.

What do you think you will do when you find out he is real. it want be what you're thinking right now.
 

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There are no other gods only the living creator God of the Bible. It wouldn't matter what I said you wouldn't accept it, we both know this, you are not fooling anyone with this line of questioning, except maybe yourself.

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You are correct in that your words hold no weight whatsoever with me.  I require actual testable physical evidence, and this is something that you clearly do not possess.

You are right I do not have testable physical evidence you will accept. I have it, it was given to me by God for me, you see I asked questions within God's will.

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Since you feel that way let me make this very clear to you, God holds you personally responsible for all the sins you commit against Him and it they go unforgiven you will find out how real hell is, this is according to the scriptures.

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An imaginary god cannot hold anyone responsible for anything, so I'm not unduly concerned.  Furthermore, I've already taken a vow to go to hell in the exceedingly unlikely prospect that such a place as hell actually exists.  If I'm unfortunate enough to get saddled with eternal life, something that I do not value at all, at least I can spend it easing the suffering that your god is inflicting on others.  I refuse to worship a god that would create a hell.

You should be more than concerned, you are gambling on an eternity of life. If you are that determined on going to hell then why are you even talking with me, I can't understand that mentality? There's no unfortunate about it, God created the soul to never die, you are in it forever. God will not be inflicting suffering on others, they will have chosen their suffering and actually causing their own torment. You see I do not think hell is a place of fire, it will be much worse and each will make his/her own tormented hell. Hell is the just response to unforgiven sin and the justice that comes from rejecting the loving God's offer of eternal life with Him.

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Prove it's mythology.

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Talking Snake™, a flood that never happened, an exodus from Egypt that never happened, virgin birth, people coming back from the dead, and a dragon so large that it can knock a third of the stars out of the sky with its tail.  If that's not mythology, I don't know what is.

Do you know the difference between a snake and a legged serpent, there was a world wide flood, you've just accepted science that doesn't want it to be true. The Exodus did happen, the Egyptians were great at erasing any history that didn't suit them, they even did it at times from one ruler to another. Christ is the only one to this point that has died and come back to an eternal life, everyone else has or will die. I see you have a hard time with prophecy, the dragon is a representation of a being so powerful that we can't begin to comprehend that kind of power. You know what mythology is the Greeks and Romans had plenty of it, but in the case of scripture it is all true.

He loves you no matter what you say about Him.

 

Apparently your god doesn't love nearly enough.  If hell exists, the suffering of even one person in such a place is a deal-breaker for me.  I simply cannot love your god under those circumstances.

God did not want anyone going to hell, he sacrificed so that we wouldn't have to. Those who wind up in eternal torment choose their destination, get made at them. You're making no sense at all, what is if you run a red light and someone slams into you because their light was green, you're blaming them for choosing to continue on their way because their light was green. You are also saying that you refuse to love God because someone else refused to love Him. I guess you would jump of the bridge because someone else did.

Faith first, then belief, then knowledge.

I am neurologically incapable of religious faith.  I'm not joking:  My brain automatically rejects claims that do not make sense, and I've been that way since I was a child.

That may be so, and I'm not joking, coming into a relationship with God has nothing to do with the brain, it is a spiritual connection. We have a soul for that very purpose. The brain part come after the belief. You see even on a point you think justifies your position you actually have neither the point nor position as you defense with God. You can try and justify your disbelief to me all you want but, it will hold no weight with God at judgment.

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I do not understand why you are so hostile toward God and His people?

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Christianity is an extremely destructive belief system that undermines self-esteem and maturity at the psychological level, and ravages cultural communities at the sociopolitical level.   There is nearly two millennia of blood on your collective hands, including the blood of some of my own ancestors' friends and neighbours.

Christianity has never been destructive to me and my family, nor the many Christians we know. Our self-esteem is high and our maturity is at a high level psychologically and our communities are doing well. You see only what you want to see and believe that everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. Sure there are rotten apples in all barrels and when it comes to the Christian barrel atheist only focus on the rotten ones and wear blinders to all the Christians who do the good work of God in their communities and nation or even around the world. Most Christians do the same with atheist and I do not believe either is treating the other fairly. I personally take the atheist here one by one, I generally pay little attention to the bad apples and have long decent conversations with the ones that I see as good people.

Jesus chose it, why can't you see that. I would die for my love ones for the reason Jesus died for you, LOVE. God did not punish Jesus, man did that, God allowed what Christ chose to do.

I reject the so-called sacrifice anyway.  The whole sordid scenario repulses me to the core of my being, and I have no intention of ever accepting it.

See what I mean, your statement above shows you choose eternal punishment. You are letting your brain silence what your soul wants, that is another excuse God will not listen to. He as done everything but force you to be a Christian and that He will never do. 

Like I have said time and again God is eternal and all sin is against His eternal nature and thus judgment is eternal. He will simply forgive you if you will accept what Christ did, not just on the cross but the entire time He was on earth.

No.  Unconditionally rejected.  Shall I seal the deal by slandering the Holy Spirit?

You are doing that already, the deal will be sealed at your death, it doesn't have to though.

God doesn't hold the power over your choice of eternal life or eternal punishment, He could but then He wouldn't be God. God is an eternal being who has always existed, who created the universe and made the greatest sacrifice for mankind. God is omnipresent, do you know what this means as related to Him?

What a ludicrous pile of excuses.  You can't do it, can you?  You really can't do it.  You seem to be utterly mentally incapable of even hypothetically entertaining the idea that your god is the abuser in this whole ridiculous story.  You can't allow even the slightest whiff of bad to touch your "loving" imaginary friend, so instead you blame the billions of mortals who are at the mercy of an eternal, omnipresent rat-bastard god.

I'm not making excuses, and no I will not entertain that thought because I know for a fact it's not true. You are right though I'm mentally incapable because God has proven Himself to me, you could have the same proof if you would let your soul guide you for awhile. You and the other atheist are the ones that are condemning God, while God allows you to do that to yourselves. God is not imaginary nor is He touchable, God is Holy putting Him beyond us. People are at their own mercy as you put it, those who reject Christ show no mercy for themselves and those who accept Christ have mercy bestowed upon them by our loving God.
 Why can't you all answer my question about the omnipresence of God, atheist here claim they are smarter than Christians, yet not one of you will answer my question, strange, yes very strange. I put it in bold above to remind you if you want to take a crack at it.

I'm not beyond hope, I have hope. God has proven himself to me in real ways, ways you wouldn't accept if I explained them to you, I know I've tried.

That's because your personal testimony is of no evidentiary value whatsoever in my eyes.

As long as God approves of my testimony then I've do alright.

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God is love, it is who He is. There are no victims when choice is involved so you can just get over the victim thing.

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You have an utterly bizarre idea of what love is.  And keep on blaming those victims, GC -- That hole you're in is just getting deeper and deeper.

I know what love is and it isn't bizarre, I've seen it in action from God and I've accepted that love given for me through the life of Jesus. I'm not in a hole i see things clearly because God has given me eyes that see things through Christ's eyes. Know what I was just thinking about that earlier and it was because I was looking at myself through Christ's eyes. I got a long ways to go.

My hope, faith, belief and knowledge are all built on the foundation of stone laid down by Christ and no amount of anything will ever change that. All I need is God and everything else will be taken care of in some manner. You can lift the whole world against me and it wouldn't make a difference, god has promised me protection. A person might kill this body, but God has my soul in His protective hands and it will be placed in a new body one day, an indestructible one.

Nope.  Eventually you will simply die, and at that moment everything you ever believed will be gone forever.  Your hope, as a close friend of mind is wont to say, is the denial of reality.

 
  Yes, definitely yes. Yes my body will die just as your's will, but our souls will continue on forever, mine will have a new body to live in, one that nothing can hurt, what about you.

GC

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You have the choice of Jesus if you will take it, and what do you mean your inability to be a scapegoat, nowhere in the bible does it say man will be a scapegoat. You are suppose to learn the lessons here, not after you die.

But I don't.  I can't choose to believe or accept something as supposedly important and life-changing as christianity when I see no evidence or proof, and delve into the history of christianity and see how the believers lie and misrepresent to further their cause.  That's one of the lessons I've learned here.

 
 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here. Yes it is your choice and only your choice, there has be plenty of true witness for Christ on this site and you have said so yourself, you have no excuse before God at Judgment. Just because we differ on some aspects of Christianity I haven't seen where we disagree on how one can be saved and when it gets down to it that is truly all that matters, God takes over from there. I answered this one because I thought I might have posted it to you, the others you can reaad because I'm posting to everyone who replied over the weekend.
GC

[Godscreated]

This is a discussion that could get very involved, I'll give you the short of it. The Bible states time and again that God looks at the heart of man, not his physical body, that includes the brain. The soul is the heart of man, it is who we are. God made the body but created the soul and thus the soul last forever. We do not need the body to be us. The soul is an entity separate from the entire physical body. Hope all this makes sense for you.

In light of the bolded passages above, it makes no sense at all. How do you explain the very real cases of personality changes in people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries? If the soul is "who we are" and it is "separate from the entire body," how can a brain injury cause us to become different people?

They happen but that has nothing to do with a spiritual relationship with God. I'm speaking spiritually not our physical make-up. Christ said, what is it for a man to gain the whole world yet lose his soul. Christ wasn't speaking of the eternal as the physical, and He was definitely telling us that the soul and physical body are separate. what you posted in blue below shows a physical change can happen when the brain is injured and it shows that a process of the self can influence that change, can you say for certainty that is not an influence of the soul in some cases. The purpose of the soul is for us to be able to know there is God.

International Journal of Emergency Mental Health and Human Resilience]Alterations in personality and behavior following traumatic brain injury (TBI) are examined in a review of the literature. Research suggests that changes in personality and behavior could be caused by the injury at an organic level, as well as the patient's response to the injury and the subsequent deficits that are experienced.

How can something completely separate from the physical body be affected in any way by a physical injury?

The soul want be changed by a brain injury specifically because it is separate from the body. The soul is how we will know God is speaking to us as long as we (the physical person) will listen. The soul will seek God if the physical self will co-operate, it does take both to gain salvation. I wish I were better able to explain what I know, you probably couldn't have picked a harder point to discuss.

God doesn't treat people like rubbish, people choose hell and God gives them what they chose. If they do not want to spend eternity with God then He will not force them. The scriptures tell us once a person dies his/her chances are over, that's the end point, you're judged and given the punishment you chose for disobedience. God deals in eternal things not temporal.

GC

So, after 80 years or so (I use that number since it's the reasonable expectation for a "normal" life span), if we haven't "found gawd," we're fucked. Even those of us who earnestly sought and never received an answer? That is not the action of a "loving gawd," nor is it the act of a "just gawd." If any god exists, I'll bet you wouldn't recognize it if it came up and introduced itself. The gawd you describe is a petulant child that murders it's pets for displeasing it.

Please understand I can't know that you made the earnest attempt, I do not have that power. I do know when you were making an attempt that I could have been there to help you understand what was going on, I wasn't so I can't really say much. I do know this, one can not find God until God (the Holy Spirit) calls you, Jesus taught this very thing to His disciples and I will look it up if you want me to. I believe this to mean that God knows when we will be ready to accept Christ as Lord and Savior, and what I mean is that we will accept Him for the right reasons. Some of those reasons could be hidden from our understanding for years after we accept Christ as savior, I know that reasons are being shown me even now that I never even thought about before. That's why you have probably heard that it is in God's timing, it's true in the case of salvation, God knows best. I've asked others and I want to ask you, do you know what omnipresent means as it pertains to God? I only came to a true understanding of it about a tear ago, why, because I wasn't ready to understand all of it's meaning until I had grown enough in Christ.
Believe me God is loving and much more so than any of us can understand. Yes I and all mankind will recognize God, there will be no mistaken that, we will be made aware of His full glory at that time and the saved and unsaved alike will see Him as He really is, far greater than we could ever imagine. God in all actuality owns us and we have always be at His mercy in some way, but as far as hell goes that is our choice alone, not even God will make that one for us. 

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 You use the phrase "figure it out," I find that strange because it sounds like one has to use a standard method to come to know God. It happens in many different ways for many different people. You might get tired of hearing Drich saying seek Him out, but it is true and that simple. People try and over complicate the process, you see God made it simple because there are those who for the lack of a better phrase, simple minded and can't process complicated things. This is a spiritual process not one of the mind, hope that covers the 80 years. The only requirement for salvation is to accept Jesus Christ for who He is and what He did for us and it was done of His on free will. You like me have never really had to choose hell, it was our eternal destination. We choose to be freed from that destination through the work of Jesus Christ. You have to understand that God only deals in the eternal because He is eternal and any sin that one commits is eternal because it's against the eternal God. If sin goes unforgiven the sin remains for eternity. Christ died and took our punishment so we wouldn't have to suffer that punishment and God says we have to accept who Christ is and what He did on our behalf to receive that forgiveness. So nothing is finite with God, He created an eternal soul and that will be judged or forgiven according to our choice, this is one choice God will not make for any man, it belongs to each of us alone. Have a good weekend.

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GC

Yes, I used "figure it out" as a shorthand term. As I've told you in the past and as I've told drippy, I did seek. With every fiber of my being, on bended knee I sought. I cried out in prayer. I wanted to believe. Who wouldn't want to given all the claims made by you religious folk. Your books tells us to "Seek and ye shall find. Ask and it shall be given unto you." The problem is, I sought and found nothing. I asked and was given nothing.

Let me ask you this, sincerely, why do you purposely misspell God and us the term drippy? As I said earlier in the post I can't say if you did or did not, but I choose to believe you. I choose to believe you because I know that God will call to you at the time He knows is best, that's why I asked you about omnipresent. Why would God call you before you were be ready to commit to Him in a manner that would have you to never lose your faith. I've seen people try to talk others into salvation and I've seen the results of that and most of the time it isn't good. I would never try and talk you into salvation, first because it is not mine to offer that's why I keep saying that is God's work, but I will as I try to do here is encourage you and anyone else that might want it. I certainly would have encouraged you back when you were trying to communicate with God. See I don't even know whether those that were around you did or even if they tried to help in any way, I'm pretty sure they didn't explain to you what I have in that it all is in God's perfect timing. Question did you ask people for what was going on that you didn't get a response from God? If you were expecting something that God couldn't give you when you were asking or expecting Christianity to be a certain way that it's not then when that didn't happen you would have become discouraged and left God. God knows when and a person has to be patient. Something else I hope will help explain what I'm saying about the soul, The soul is who we are in relation to God, our brain can't conceive of who God is and without the soul we would be as lost as a stray dog.  

You've got this sick, twisted belief burning inside you that we are all somehow worthy of hell, no matter what. That we are, in a sense, branded by "sin." Is it really because (allegedly) some nekkid lady picked a choice bit of fruit and ate it, gaining the knowledge of good and evil by doing so? Or, is it just a made up disease, created for the sole purpose of selling you the only cure?

Sorry but it's not twisted and we are condemned if we do not choose to be freed of the eternal punishment, but better yet choose to accept the love of Christ and then know the eternal punishment has nothing to do with us. Those like me that sought first to keep out of hell struggle and sometimes never grow in Christ, it was many years before I realized I wasn't able to grow because I was happy with the status quo. God continued working with me until I realized that Christianity was much more and better than just staying out of hell. Yes Adam and Eve are why we are condemned, we are born with a sin nature. Adam and Eve caused all people for all time to lose the sinless nature we could have been born with, but in some kind of defense of them, if it hadn't of been them it would have soon happened, Lucifer wasn't going down without a fight and his whole desire was to hurt God and grow the rebellion to help him to take God's throne, silly little serpent was blinded by his own hate. But people need to know that God gave us a way out as long as we were willing to accept His plan through Christ. When He flooded the world He could have easily enough of taken Noah and his family with the flood waters, then folded up the universe and gone home, but He didn't, His love saved us all for another chance and that chance cost Him dearly and when a person recognizes that, well I believe they are close to being called. As much as most atheist here want to believe I'm trying to sell them a made up disease and a made up cure, I'm not it's all very real and one day those who refuse to believe will find out I was telling the truth. Why would I lie about this, why would I spend so many years on this forum if it were not true, all the time I've spent here has cost me several pieces of furniture I could have built. You all think it's easy being a Christian and it's not and God never promised us it would be. You all need to remember we still have that old nature to sin and it nags at us all the time, God's allowed Satan to tempt us and we have to remember to count on God to help us resist, it will help us in the long run, but nevertheless we will deal with this to the day we die.

GC, your belief in an ancient war god and it's alleged progeny has you by the short and curlies. You claim to have an open mind, so I'm going to make you a challenge. For one month, direct all your prayers, all your devotion, all your faith and all your belief to a gallon jug of milk. I'm betting that all your returns will be exactly the same as they are now.

Nope, I want waste my time on denying my God because that is exactly what I would be doing, I'm stronger than you might think and I know the real truth and that's what gives me the strength and knowledge not to be fooled. I'm going to take it you meant well by that, but you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, know why, he knows when he's thirsty, understand?

In another post you denied being a science denier. Have you come around on the subject of evolution yet?

I like science and believe in much of it a person would be stupid to deny all science, it's in our every day lives. Evolution will never be a part of my belief because I know creation by God is the truth. Evolution has far to many problems to over come and I know that they will never be over come. I do not believe in the "big bang" as science presents it, science can't ans never will be able to explain where the material came from to have a big bang, can't travel to the past, for us it's gone. I use to study with scientist and professors on this very thing (creation vs big bang, evolution) and I can see for myself the problems that face these theories. I've seen how scientist have had to either add or subtract to equations to get them to meat what physics demands, that's cheating to say the least. You all might hate the Creation Sciences (I don't agree with all they say) but I bet most if not all of you have never given them a good look. Like I said we studied both and creation science answers questions better. If you don't know the creation sciences have some extremely top notch scientist and I watched one of then debate an evolutionist at the our local university and the evolutionary scientist all but embarrassed himself. He did not give his students much to cheer about.

You are not worthy of hell, GC. No matter what you done or haven't done. No one is ever deserving of eternal suffering. Throw off your shackles and lose your fear. There's nothing to be afraid of.

I was and I knew it, it's why I wanted to change my situation. I have nothing to fear and I'm not sure why you think I am afraid, my future is secure for eternity. Everyone who does not accept Christ as their savior will find their eternal destiny is an eternal punishment because their sins are still unforgiven and against the eternal God and thus justice is eternal punishment. God says that any unforgiven sin will cost one their eternal soul as Jesus said, what does it gain a man to gain the whole world yet lose his soul. i'm sure you probably can't see that at this time.... but maybe some day. Thanks for the good conversation.

GC

[Harry Nevis]

I only went to Sunday School a few times because a friend of mine was going.  Got bored and dropped out.

Since your imaginary friend doesn't seem to be interested in proving its existence to me, I'm not interested in looking for it either.  I'm proceeding on the assumption that it's imaginary.

What do you think you will do when you find out he is real. it want be what you're thinking right now.
 

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There are no other gods only the living creator God of the Bible. It wouldn't matter what I said you wouldn't accept it, we both know this, you are not fooling anyone with this line of questioning, except maybe yourself.

---

You are correct in that your words hold no weight whatsoever with me.  I require actual testable physical evidence, and this is something that you clearly do not possess.

You are right I do not have testable physical evidence you will accept. I have it, it was given to me by God for me, you see I asked questions within God's will.

How stupid.  And what will you do when you find out it's all bullshit?  You won't. 

And you have no testable evidence.  We'd probably accept it if you did.  But I'm sure you just re-define testable and evidence to your own special definition.

---

I don't think you can really speak for anyone else on this one buddy.  If you absolutely insist that you're some sort of monstrous degenerate who should burn in the fires of hell for all eternity..then so be it.  There's still the issue of the rest of us, who aren't.

Whether the better man is forced or willingly beaten for my crimes, he;s still a scapegoat...and personally, I;m not the sort of degenerate that accepts such an arrangement even if it were offered.  So I guess points to you, on that count.  You really might be as broken as you say you are.

 I was broken, Christ is in the process of rebuilding me daily. Without what He did on our behalf we all would stay broken spiritually and like I said before spiritually is how God deals with us in the end. You can call Him what you want but He chose to do it for you, a gift of eternal enormity.

GC

I got news for you.  You're still broken.

[The Grand Nudger]

That always seems to escape the hardcore christers.  A person who..so fearful of death and the imagined consequences for what must be a mountain of shitty things they've done, casts that burden on another out of desperation and in doing imagines that they've been "fixed".  

If you've done something so heinous that you deserve eternal damnation...stop wasting your time praying to spirits, and go make restitution..before it's too late.  No amount of magical incantations and professions of faith will or -can- "fix" you. Throwing your hands in the air and laying it all on somebody else is just another shitty thing to add to the pile..not an improvement. Resting easy in the belief that you will escape consequence for that pile of shitty things, again, another shitty thing added to the pile.

Take some of that personal fucking responsibility you crow about, and do something that might actually "fix" you, or help to make whole whomever you've wronged.

[Harry Nevis]

 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here. Yes it is your choice and only your choice, there has be plenty of true witness for Christ on this site and you have said so yourself, you have no excuse before God at Judgment. Just because we differ on some aspects of Christianity I haven't seen where we disagree on how one can be saved and when it gets down to it that is truly all that matters, God takes over from there. I answered this one because I thought I might have posted it to you, the others you can reaad because I'm posting to everyone who replied over the weekend.
GC

You lie every time you claim opinion is fact.

[Astreja]

What do you think you will do when you find out he is real. it want be what you're thinking right now.

You mean, "if" your god is real.  Not concerned.

You are right I do not have testable physical evidence you will accept. I have it, it was given to me by God for me, you see I asked questions within God's will.

It doesn't sound like your so-called evidence is either physical or testable.  Comprehension fail on your part.

You should be more than concerned, you are gambling on an eternity of life.

Based on what I know about the real world, I wager that the odds of hell actually existing are infinitesimal to zero, and that for all intents and purposes I am in no danger at all.

If you are that determined on going to hell then why are you even talking with me, I can't understand that mentality?

Because of the utterly batshit-insane things you say below:

There's no unfortunate about it, God created the soul to never die, you are in it forever. God will not be inflicting suffering on others, they will have chosen their suffering and actually causing their own torment. You see I do not think hell is a place of fire, it will be much worse and each will make his/her own tormented hell. Hell is the just response to unforgiven sin and the justice that comes from rejecting the loving God's offer of eternal life with Him.

You are deeply ensnared in a morally untenable religious fantasy.  I feel it to be my civic duty to smack down and crush your absurd beliefs publicly to dissuade others from following you down that path.  If you post, I shall reply and I shall not be silenced.

Do you know the difference between a snake and a legged serpent, there was a world wide flood, you've just accepted science that doesn't want it to be true. The Exodus did happen, the Egyptians were great at erasing any history that didn't suit them, they even did it at times from one ruler to another. Christ is the only one to this point that has died and come back to an eternal life, everyone else has or will die. I see you have a hard time with prophecy, the dragon is a representation of a being so powerful that we can't begin to comprehend that kind of power. You know what mythology is the Greeks and Romans had plenty of it, but in the case of scripture it is all true.

Hahahahaha!  You really are broken.  You're addicted to the Bible and you're prepared to deny modern science, history and archaeology to uphold a ridiculous ancient book as "Da Troof."

God did not want anyone going to hell, he sacrificed so that we wouldn't have to.

Logic fail.  A god that didn't want anyone going to hell wouldn't bother to create one.  Your god apparently does want someone to suffer there, and if that is the case (although I profoundly doubt the place exists) my duty is to be with that someone and do what I can to ease their pain.

You're making no sense at all, what is if you run a red light and someone slams into you because their light was green, you're blaming them for choosing to continue on their way because their light was green.

Traffic accidents are real.  Your god and its hell, until demonstrated to my satisfaction, are fictional.

You are also saying that you refuse to love God because someone else refused to love Him. I guess you would jump of the bridge because someone else did.

I would indeed jump off a bridge rather than spend eternity with your demon-god and its zombie son while billions of sentient beings cry out in agony.  I cannot feel any love for a god that would permit such suffering.

That may be so, and I'm not joking, coming into a relationship with God has nothing to do with the brain, it is a spiritual connection. We have a soul for that very purpose. The brain part come after the belief. You see even on a point you think justifies your position you actually have neither the point nor position as you defense with God. You can try and justify your disbelief to me all you want but, it will hold no weight with God at judgment.

Judgment Day is just a revenge-fantasy.  It won't happen.

Yes, definitely yes. Yes my body will die just as your's will, but our souls will continue on forever, mine will have a new body to live in, one that nothing can hurt, what about you.

Nope.  One day you will die.  Your body will either be cremated or rot in the ground.  You will never, ever get a new body to live in.  You will not reunite with lost loved ones.  Death is the end of you, and there is literally no prayer in the universe strong enough to save you.

Embrace the darkness.  It awaits you.  It awaits us all.

[Harry Nevis]

---

But I don't.  I can't choose to believe or accept something as supposedly important and life-changing as christianity when I see no evidence or proof, and delve into the history of christianity and see how the believers lie and misrepresent to further their cause.  That's one of the lessons I've learned here.

 
 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here. Yes it is your choice and only your choice, there has be plenty of true witness for Christ on this site and you have said so yourself, you have no excuse before God at Judgment. Just because we differ on some aspects of Christianity I haven't seen where we disagree on how one can be saved and when it gets down to it that is truly all that matters, God takes over from there. I answered this one because I thought I might have posted it to you, the others you can reaad because I'm posting to everyone who replied over the weekend.
GC

Really!? I said that?  Where?

I would say we roundly disagree.  There is no salvation, because there is no sin, because there is no Jesus, because your god doesn't exist.

---

 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here.
GC

Then show us your testable evidence for god.  You said you have it.

[Godscreated]

What do you think you will do when you find out he is real. it want be what you're thinking right now.

You mean, "if" your god is real.  Not concerned.

He is real and you should be concerned. If you spent as much time on looking for God as you do denying Him you might find out He's real.

You are right I do not have testable physical evidence you will accept. I have it, it was given to me by God for me, you see I asked questions within God's will.

It doesn't sound like your so-called evidence is either physical or testable.  Comprehension fail on your part.

It is real just not in a way you would comprehend, God communicates to use through the soul and if you do not listen it's your loss.

You should be more than concerned, you are gambling on an eternity of life.

Based on what I know about the real world, I wager that the odds of hell actually existing are infinitesimal to zero, and that for all intents and purposes I am in no danger at all.

You are in extreme danger, you want everything to be physical and God is spirit and deals with us in spiritual ways.

If you are that determined on going to hell then why are you even talking with me, I can't understand that mentality?

Because of the utterly batshit-insane things you say below:

Just because you can't understand what I know for fact is true doesn't make me crazy. Because you do not accept it doesn't make you uninformed.

There's no unfortunate about it, God created the soul to never die, you are in it forever. God will not be inflicting suffering on others, they will have chosen their suffering and actually causing their own torment. You see I do not think hell is a place of fire, it will be much worse and each will make his/her own tormented hell. Hell is the just response to unforgiven sin and the justice that comes from rejecting the loving God's offer of eternal life with Him.

You are deeply ensnared in a morally untenable religious fantasy.  I feel it to be my civic duty to smack down and crush your absurd beliefs publicly to dissuade others from following you down that path.  If you post, I shall reply and I shall not be silenced.

I'm by choice ensnared in God's love and reality. Good I'm glad you will engage in conversation even if it is negative. That way those who just visit here and never join can see both sides and make their own decisions.

Do you know the difference between a snake and a legged serpent, there was a world wide flood, you've just accepted science that doesn't want it to be true. The Exodus did happen, the Egyptians were great at erasing any history that didn't suit them, they even did it at times from one ruler to another. Christ is the only one to this point that has died and come back to an eternal life, everyone else has or will die. I see you have a hard time with prophecy, the dragon is a representation of a being so powerful that we can't begin to comprehend that kind of power. You know what mythology is the Greeks and Romans had plenty of it, but in the case of scripture it is all true.

Hahahahaha!  You really are broken.  You're addicted to the Bible and you're prepared to deny modern science, history and archaeology to uphold a ridiculous ancient book as "Da Troof."

again I know the truth and I've studied sciences that deal with the flood and evolution, I know more than you might think. I told the truth about Egyptian history, to bad you're not up to date on the history of ancient Egypt. There is evidence of a global flood, there are even stories of a global flood by peoples who aren't even connected with each other when those stories were written.

God did not want anyone going to hell, he sacrificed so that we wouldn't have to.

Logic fail.  A god that didn't want anyone going to hell wouldn't bother to create one.  Your god apparently does want someone to suffer there, and if that is the case (although I profoundly doubt the place exists) my duty is to be with that someone and do what I can to ease their pain.

He created one because He is omnipresent, knowing there would be the need for it because justice would be served. God has said He desires no one to enter eternal torment, that doesn't mean He can stop it, you have the free choice to choose. If you are in hell you will not be able to help anyone, you want ever see anyone, the place is in darkness and you will be to busy creating your own torment, but not all of it because even though you want see anyone else you will be able to hear the agony they are causing themselves.

You're making no sense at all, what is if you run a red light and someone slams into you because their light was green, you're blaming them for choosing to continue on their way because their light was green.

Traffic accidents are real.  Your god and its hell, until demonstrated to my satisfaction, are fictional.

You want to know about God and hell, then go to Him and find out. Hell is as real as a traffic accident, besides I was referring to you blaming God for those who will be there, how do you even conceive such when God refuses to make the choice for them.

You are also saying that you refuse to love God because someone else refused to love Him. I guess you would jump of the bridge because someone else did.

I would indeed jump off a bridge rather than spend eternity with your demon-god and its zombie son while billions of sentient beings cry out in agony.  I cannot feel any love for a god that would permit such suffering.

How is it you can't see that the scriptures given to us by God shows that the people will choose their own eternal destiny, probably because you listen to the uneducated who believe they know everything about the Bible. It' for sure you have never taken the time to find out on your own, you've admitted to that.

That may be so, and I'm not joking, coming into a relationship with God has nothing to do with the brain, it is a spiritual connection. We have a soul for that very purpose. The brain part come after the belief. You see even on a point you think justifies your position you actually have neither the point nor position as you defense with God. You can try and justify your disbelief to me all you want but, it will hold no weight with God at judgment.

Judgment Day is just a revenge-fantasy.  It won't happen.

That is wishful thinking on your part, why, because you have no certainty of what you profess. I on the other hand do have certainty it's why I keep this conversation going.

Yes, definitely yes. Yes my body will die just as your's will, but our souls will continue on forever, mine will have a new body to live in, one that nothing can hurt, what about you.

Nope.  One day you will die.  Your body will either be cremated or rot in the ground.  You will never, ever get a new body to live in.  You will not reunite with lost loved ones.  Death is the end of you, and there is literally no prayer in the universe strong enough to save you.

Embrace the darkness.  It awaits you.  It awaits us all.

 
 One day I will die and most likely be cremated, that's my choice but want be able to make it so, that depends on others. I will have a new body that will never die, get sick, hunger, have pain or anything we might call discomfort, that's be promised to me. Yes one prayer is all it took, because I had answered God's call.

Unfortunately if  you do not change the darkness will be your's and you will be surrounded by those who are there and never be able to interact with them in any way, the screams of their own self inflicted torment will be your's forever.

GC

---

---

 
 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here. Yes it is your choice and only your choice, there has been plenty of true witness for Christ on this site and you have said so yourself, you have no excuse before God at Judgment. Just because we differ on some aspects of Christianity I haven't seen where we disagree on how one can be saved and when it gets down to it that is truly all that matters, God takes over from there. I answered this one because I thought I might have posted it to you, the others you can read because I'm posting to everyone who replied over the weekend.
GC

Really!? I said that?  Where?

I would say we roundly disagree.  There is no salvation, because there is no sin, because there is no Jesus, because your god doesn't exist.

Every time you complain about us being here. God says only a fool would deny sin and He meant on many different levels. You place a hope in those things you posted above, because you know if Christians are right hell awaits those who refuse to believe.

---

 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here.
GC

Then show us your testable evidence for god.  You said you have it.

 I've never said I have testable evidence.

GC

---

 You have not seen me lie to you or anyone else here. Yes it is your choice and only your choice, there has be plenty of true witness for Christ on this site and you have said so yourself, you have no excuse before God at Judgment. Just because we differ on some aspects of Christianity I haven't seen where we disagree on how one can be saved and when it gets down to it that is truly all that matters, God takes over from there. I answered this one because I thought I might have posted it to you, the others you can reaad because I'm posting to everyone who replied over the weekend.
GC

You lie every time you claim opinion is fact.

That's only an opinion by you, so does that make you a liar, you can't prove what I say isn't fact.

GC

---

What do you think you will do when you find out he is real. it want be what you're thinking right now.
 


You are right I do not have testable physical evidence you will accept. I have it, it was given to me by God for me, you see I asked questions within God's will.

How stupid.  And what will you do when you find out it's all bullshit?  You won't. 

And you have no testable evidence.  We'd probably accept it if you did.  But I'm sure you just re-define testable and evidence to your own special definition.

I will be in heaven, no doubts. The evidence given me was for me on a personal level, I tested it and it has shown to be true, you would never comprehend it in the state you live in now. Sorry that's the way it is in this case.

---

 I was broken, Christ is in the process of rebuilding me daily. Without what He did on our behalf we all would stay broken spiritually and like I said before spiritually is how God deals with us in the end. You can call Him what you want but He chose to do it for you, a gift of eternal enormity.

GC

 

I got news for you.  You're still broken.

 I'll always be broken because I'm not perfect. I'm just not broken in the same way, the way that leads to hell.

GC