The Cake Case Revisited

[Rev. Rye]

I would suspect that her support for such a plan ultimately hinges on what I'd like to call "the invisible hand of basic human decency" taking hold and rightfully marginalizing racist bakers. I know that Ron Paul (and some of his more idealistic supporters) claimed that this was what should happen in such a case.

The sad thing is It turns out America doesn't really work that way.

[Minimalist]

You can have freedom of religion and still comply with the laws of your state.

Best summed up in the phrase:  "Believe what you want but make the fucking cake."

[Catholic_Lady]

You can have freedom of religion and still comply with the laws of your state.

Best summed up in the phrase:  "Believe what you want but make the fucking cake."

But what if it was your bakery and someone walked in and asked you to make a cake for something you're very against?

---

I agree with Bob. I think we can all say that if we owned a cake bakery and someone walked in wanting a cake that said "White Power" with a swastika on it for a white supremacist Nazi gathering, we should be allowed to refuse to make it. Same goes for if someone wants to refuse to make a cake that says "Happy Wedding Day Ralph and Steve". A company owner should always be allowed to turn down a particular task (not people) if it goes against their moral, political, or religious convictions.

And if a black couple walked in and your precious holy bakery owner said "get out niggers," would you be okay with that too?

The state of Colorado has enacted anti-discrimination laws.  Your hero baker wants to use his primitive religion to defeat those laws.  I'd love to see the court smack him right in his fucking mouth.

I said they can "turn down a particular task (not people)"

[Seraphina]

In an ideal political climate, bigoted bakers should be allowed to do whatever they want and let their businesses fail because the invisible hand of the public rejects their bigoted bullshit.

Alas, we don't live in that ideal political climate. That invisible hand does not exist and all that results is we end up further Balkanized than we already are.

+1
A boycott of the bigoted baker (I alliteration) would be the most efficient way to solve this particular case.

The Montgomery bus boycott back in the 1950s (started when Rosa Parks famously sat up front) led to a SCOTUS decision that segregation on public buses is unconstitutional.

Alas, we Americans are too apathetic, lazy or both to get involved in boycotts. Clicking "like" on Facebook is what passes for activism these days.
I won't eat at Chick Fil A because of the owner's bigoted views on my LGBT friends and I don't shop at Hobby Lobby because they insist on monitoring my (and all women's) vagina and uterus. I also won't eat at a local ice cream parlor chain because the owners proudly contributed to the anti-gay marriage initiative in our state a few years ago.

-Teresa

[vorlon13]

I'd offer an experience I had at the defense contractor.

At one point my supervisor directed me to fill out some paperwork for a security clearance so I could work on the {none of your fucking business} project and I just kept putting off doing it.

As you might suspect, your vorlon has not led a life that could withstand much scrutiny from a government a little squeamish about who they divulge their secrets to and who they don't. In that era, the 80s, I was volunteering for a hospice organization helping people with AIDS. At that time there wasn't much protection for folks with that 'status' and I was privy to the HIV status of quite a few people. I cannot be processed for a security clearance for that and several other reasons.

But I REALLY needed the job. The money and benefits allowed me to do things like volunteer for an HIV hospice after all.

One of my rules is when it's not clear what to do, try not to do anything. Programs can be canceled, my supervisor might get a promotion, project requirements might change, whatever, so just tried waiting things out.

Eventually, my supervisor phrased the request for security processing as an order (fuck !!) so instead of filling out the forms (before the government will let you in on their secrets you have to bring them up to speed on all of your own) I sent a simple memo to the security director respectfully declining processing without offering any reasons at all.

I was prepared to get fired over this, I wasn't going to like it, but there wasn't any alternative.

I did harbor a secret hope that by demonstrating under considerable pressure I COULD keep secrets (well, mine at least) that maybe some good would come from this clusterfuck after all, but it didn't.

Anyhow, I didn't get fired, I was off the [none of your fucking business] program and wound up working on something I actually liked more anyhow.


So, tying this to goddam cakes in Colorado, the folks running the store know (or should know) the laws of their state and I don't think I'm going too far in expecting them to graciously take their consequences if they want to die on that particular hill. I was so willing when it rolled around to me.

I didn't let anyone know at the organization, either, they had enough to worry about as it was. It was a fucking stressor to me though.


Maybe I otta send my old supervisor a cake ?

[Rev. Rye]

In an ideal political climate, bigoted bakers should be allowed to do whatever they want and let their businesses fail because the invisible hand of the public rejects their bigoted bullshit.

Alas, we don't live in that ideal political climate. That invisible hand does not exist and all that results is we end up further Balkanized than we already are.

+1
A boycott of the bigoted baker (I alliteration) would be the most efficient way to solve this particular case.

The Montgomery bus boycott back in the 1950s (started when Rosa Parks famously sat up front) led to a SCOTUS decision that segregation on public buses is unconstitutional.

Alas, we Americans are too apathetic, lazy or both to get involved in boycotts. Clicking "like" on Facebook is what passes for activism these days.
I won't eat at Chick Fil A because of the owner's bigoted views on my LGBT friends and I don't shop at Hobby Lobby because they insist on monitoring my (and all women's) vagina and uterus. I also won't eat at a local ice cream parlor chain because the owners proudly contributed to the anti-gay marriage initiative in our state a few years ago.

-Teresa

That and open bigotry is becoming more and more mainstream in America. Remember how stores like Hobby Lobby and Chick Fil A got a new bunch of customers after coming out as being run by blatant homophobes or jackasses who think it's imperative to deny access to birth control via HEALTH INSURANCE PLANS? Conservatives complain about liberals who "Virtue signal" but what does that make the conservatives who make a big show of supporting stores that have recently become notorious for fighting to deny people of their human rights? Well, "dickishness signalling" maybe, but do you think they'll openly admit they're assholes?

The big problem with boycotting is that it requires a huge level of buy-in to work properly. Even if everyone who disagreed with their politics made a conscious choice to not make money, you can't guarantee it won't become successful with the bigots who'll come out of the woodwork to support it.

In the end, a successful boycott may rely too much on an "Invisible Hand of Basic Human Decency" to really be effective.

[The Grand Nudger]

I agree with Bob. I think we can all say that if we owned a cake bakery and someone walked in wanting a cake that said "White Power" with a swastika on it for a white supremacist Nazi gathering, we should be allowed to refuse to make it. Same goes for if someone wants to refuse to make a cake that says "Happy Wedding Day Ralph and Steve". A company owner should always be allowed to turn down a particular task (not people) if it goes against their moral, political, or religious convictions.

Straight to a comparison between homo cakes and nazi cakes eh?  Legit.

If you feel that religious, political, or moral discrimination should be legal discrimination, that's how you feel. Hows about we put up some whites only signs while were at it, on moral..political..and religious grounds, ofc.

[Amarok]

A bakery is a public business and therefore it will serve the public regardless of personal qualms . As for the idea of skinheads and Nazi's  most of that would be hate speech. And thus not a valid comparison to Happy Wedding day Jack And Steve which is not. So they have 4 choice

1. Do cakes on commission only

2. Go out of business

3. Move elsewhere

4. Suck it up.

[Minimalist]

But what if it was your bakery and someone walked in and asked you to make a cake for something you're very against?

Like, say.... catholicism?  I'd make the cake and think "you're an asshole" the whole time.

Understand, hon.  These people are less concerned with their personal belief than they are about inflicting those beliefs on others.  Let me give you an absurd example to make the point.

A Hawaiian guy moves in to Washington and demands the right to throw a virgin into Mt. St Helens' so it doesn't erupt again.  What about his freedom of religion?  Any consitutional "freedom" simply means that no level of government can throw your ass into jail for violating it.  But there are other ramifications.  Those NFL players have every to kneel whenever they want and the other fans who don't want to be reminded of social injustices have every right to boo them.

[Rev. Rye]

If I were a baker asked to make a racist cake for Nazis, I'd probably do something like this.



And I'd probably make it chocolate just to spite them.