Reasoning showing homosexuality is evil.

[Mystic]

I am wondering that exact thing.

[emjay]

The bigotries of your religious leaders were written into their screeds.  What's so difficult to understand about that?  You;re not really sitting there wondering whether or not god hates homosexuals as much as they did, are you?

He's full of shit... well Shite (the extra i is optional). I don't believe a word he says... the whole thing comes across to me as disingenuous.

[The Grand Nudger]

Well gl with that, then.  Tell us what he says next time you have a chat MK.

[WinterHold]

There may be some environmental factors but I doubt it and that makes zero sense to me. Sexuality just seems to be innate.

And aside from "makes zero sense to me" and "just seems".... the important part is that the scientific evidence is strongly in favor of the belief that homosexuality is indeed genetic and innate.

Well, in my view it's only apparently innate, or as good as innate, from a first person perspective. Ie you hit puberty and start having all these feelings and desires you never had before; in either case they come out of nowhere experientially/subjectively, but in your view (if I understand correctly) their source is genetic, but in my view, they are the result of prior environmental learning that has been going on since birth... maybe some genetics as well but as I said I lean more towards nurture/environmental learning. Either way, by the time they appear consciously they're pretty much fixed, with further learning/experience only steering their further development. So either way there's no difference between the net result; something that feels innate.

"Sex/intercourse" is innate in my perspective. But choosing the mate that would get the organ ready for operation (in the case of men: penetration); is up to what the brain is used to; in terms of Dopamine producing triggers defined through the neuron networks formed by the experiences of the person.

Genetics are the triggers of that, and that's the innate perspective in it all. Yes; according to the environment, your brain would form the network to satisfy what it learned through the day.

I won't say conscious appearance of the choice means its fixed. I prefer to think that we can affect any part of our consciousness anytime we want.

[Joods]

You are still trying to imply that being gay is a choice and you are so very wrong about that.

[WinterHold]

I don't think that calling homosexuality a mental illness is anywhere near as bad as calling it evil.

Bipolar is a mental illness . . . and saying Bipolar was "evil" would be a lot worse.

And not just because Bipolar actually is a mental illness. Imagine someone who thought all mental illnesses were "evil" that would be a lot worse.

Again . . . that's not just because the reality is actual mental illness are actually mental illness. Imagine if someone thought wearing top hats was a mental illness. It's obviously not. But that's not as bad as thinking anyone who wears top hats are evil and should be punished.

The fact Atlas thinks homosexuality is an illness makes him ignorant and it means he has prejudiced and bigoted views... but I don't think it's as bad as someone like MK who says it's "evil".

It's still bad to think it's a mental illness because that's to say that homosexuality needs curing or fixing when it's just as healthy as heterosexuality. It's definitely bad and harmful for Atlas to have that view . . . and it discriminates against homosexuals. But I do think that believing such a thing is a lesser evil than thinking homosexuals are evil. Perhaps Atlas's heart is in the right place and he really does believe homosexuality is unnatural and unhealthy. That's a harmful view but you can't say someone who thinks homosexuality is evil has their heart in the right place. The difference is that saying homosexuality is "evil" is to demonize homosexuals and treat them as subhuman.

And at least viewing homosexuality as an illness is a view more likely to be corrected by scientific indicates otherwise and demonstrates that homosexuality is completely healthy. But it's hard to make a logical argument or provide scientific evidence against anyone who says something is "evil" because their premise is often just their own aversion rather than being ignorant of the facts. You can correct any facts they like and they'll just assert that it's evil because magic book or whatever.

It's still a very immoral, bigoted and prejudiced view of course. But I wouldn't argue that it's as bad.

Freedom of opinion must allow me to judge the act according to my beliefs and personal investigations; I'm a bigot if I begin to hurt other directly with my opinion. But my opinion about homosexuality is a personal opinion; applied on me by me; and I don't force it on anybody else.

The whole issue in referring to this as an illness, that it's hard to digest. But it's ignorant for real, to think that a mental path that got formed through different experiences and different environments, is a "bigoted description".

But how can I describe my personal experience; then? If I shut up because of somebody; then that is just my right to express myself got stepped on; and that is the de-facto bigoted method; suppressing the voice of the minority. I'm not hurting anybody with my opinion at least. And people should seriously cut the ego off, and stop treating the word "mental" as "crazy".

---

It's bad enough that society likes placing labels on as many people as possible. The last thing the gay community needs is a label announcing to the world that gay people have a mental disorder simply because of who they are. So no - I do not buy the argument that calling it a mental disorder isn't a bad as saying it's evil. Both are unnecessary in my opinion.

When the Quran came; God didn't order humanity to live the "Roman city" life, a life full of theaters and gladiators and..gossip, but it said this to humans this:

Sura 49, The Quran:
( 12 )   O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

A person living to watch what others did is a lowlife; if you ask me. You only observe others to learn; to make lovers; to make friends; but practicing negative assumption, gossip and so.

But what do I do, if a dictatorship like the Sauds, enforced an oppressive religious system to keep control over schools so people never revolt; and the aftermath of that is the prevention of male and female interaction until sex becomes a same gender thing?

Sunni/Shiite Muslims are the first cause of homosexuality in the region. And when it takes place; they stone the gay couple.
But still; they get to flirt with Ivanka Trump as a royal family; while we fuck each other for pleasure; or even fuck goats to get off.

I can't ignore my experience and move with what so many say. If I did so earlier; I wouldn't be here.

---

Yeah it's still awful because discriminating and being intolerant against gays under the label of "treatment" isn't much better. It's still discrimination and intolerance.

I just think that labeling homosexuality as "evil" is even worse because that kind of attitude is more likely to lead to violence and hate. Which is a step further than intolerance and discrimination.

The person who harass you because you take it from the ass is a bully.
The person who french-kiss his boyfriend inside a mosque is a bully.

Both are inconsiderate, both are assholes.

[Joods]

---

I don't think that calling homosexuality a mental illness is anywhere near as bad as calling it evil.

Bipolar is a mental illness . . . and saying Bipolar was "evil" would be a lot worse.

And not just because Bipolar actually is a mental illness. Imagine someone who thought all mental illnesses were "evil" that would be a lot worse.

Again . . . that's not just because the reality is actual mental illness are actually mental illness. Imagine if someone thought wearing top hats was a mental illness. It's obviously not. But that's not as bad as thinking anyone who wears top hats are evil and should be punished.

The fact Atlas thinks homosexuality is an illness makes him ignorant and it means he has prejudiced and bigoted views... but I don't think it's as bad as someone like MK who says it's "evil".

It's still bad to think it's a mental illness because that's to say that homosexuality needs curing or fixing when it's just as healthy as heterosexuality. It's definitely bad and harmful for Atlas to have that view . . . and it discriminates against homosexuals. But I do think that believing such a thing is a lesser evil than thinking homosexuals are evil. Perhaps Atlas's heart is in the right place and he really does believe homosexuality is unnatural and unhealthy. That's a harmful view but you can't say someone who thinks homosexuality is evil has their heart in the right place. The difference is that saying homosexuality is "evil" is to demonize homosexuals and treat them as subhuman.

And at least viewing homosexuality as an illness is a view more likely to be corrected by scientific indicates otherwise and demonstrates that homosexuality is completely healthy. But it's hard to make a logical argument or provide scientific evidence against anyone who says something is "evil" because their premise is often just their own aversion rather than being ignorant of the facts. You can correct any facts they like and they'll just assert that it's evil because magic book or whatever.

It's still a very immoral, bigoted and prejudiced view of course. But I wouldn't argue that it's as bad.

Freedom of opinion must allow me to judge the act according to my beliefs and personal investigations; I'm a bigot if I begin to hurt other directly with my opinion. But my opinion about homosexuality is a personal opinion; applied on me by me; and I don't force it on anybody else.

The whole issue in referring to this as an illness, that it's hard to digest. But it's ignorant for real, to think that a mental path that got formed through different experiences and different environments, is a "bigoted description".

But how can I describe my personal experience; then? If I shut up because of somebody; then that is just my right to express myself got stepped on; and that is the de-facto bigoted method; suppressing the voice of the minority. I'm not hurting anybody with my opinion at least. And people should seriously cut the ego off, and stop treating the word "mental" as "crazy".

---

It's bad enough that society likes placing labels on as many people as possible. The last thing the gay community needs is a label announcing to the world that gay people have a mental disorder simply because of who they are. So no - I do not buy the argument that calling it a mental disorder isn't a bad as saying it's evil. Both are unnecessary in my opinion.

When the Quran came; God didn't order humanity to live the "Roman city" life, a life full of theaters and gladiators and..gossip, but it said this to humans this:

Sura 49, The Quran:
( 12 )   O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

A person living to watch what others did is a lowlife; if you ask me. You only observe others to learn; to make lovers; to make friends; but practicing negative assumption, gossip and so.

But what do I do, if a dictatorship like the Sauds, enforced an oppressive religious system to keep control over schools so people never revolt; and the aftermath of that is the prevention of male and female interaction until sex becomes a same gender thing?

Sunni/Shiite Muslims are the first cause of homosexuality in the region. And when it takes place; they stone the gay couple.
But still; they get to flirt with Ivanka Trump as a royal family; while we fuck each other for pleasure; or even fuck goats to get off.

I can't ignore my experience and move with what so many say. If I did so earlier; I wouldn't be here.

---

Yeah it's still awful because discriminating and being intolerant against gays under the label of "treatment" isn't much better. It's still discrimination and intolerance.

I just think that labeling homosexuality as "evil" is even worse because that kind of attitude is more likely to lead to violence and hate. Which is a step further than intolerance and discrimination.

The person who harass you because you take it from the ass is a bully.
The person who french-kiss his boyfriend inside a mosque is a bully.

Both are inconsiderate, both are assholes.

---

We are both entitled to our opinions here. And you and I and every other member are free to challenge and debate those opinions. We should try to be adult-like and civil when doing so, but emotions get in the way and that doesn't always happen.

[WinterHold]

Lots of Muslims, and by lots I mean lots; follow bigoted opinions represented in the two main sects composing the majority: Shiite Islam and Sunni Islam.
Despite the severe disasters these terminologies brought upon Muslims; Muslims followed them still.

The problem is with the religion itself... it is pure hate and judgment, so it producing/encouraging bigotry on a large scale comes as no surprise.

Humanity as a whole shows pure hate and judgemental madness. Religious humans are after all; humans.
They transfer their hate to their religions; producing the hellish Shiite/Sunni/Catholic...etc doctrines.

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest; wherever there is oppression there will always be resistance and/or people partaking in that which is prohibited; the forbidden fruit syndrome as it were. And the first word that comes to mind for me when I think of Islam is 'oppression'; a religion whose singular aim seems to be to prohibit pretty much everything, require total and absolute conformity from its members, and create a mass of people who are all exactly the same, with any non-conformists severely, and often brutally dealt with. What possible good you see in such a religion is beyond me.

Specify the cult and you'll be more accurate and spot on: Sunni Islam & Shiite Islam are the main issue.
The Sunni/Shiite hadith are mainly the source of these prohibitions, and dictators use them to furthermore extend their grip over the regions where Islam is dominant.

The problem is, as fair as you want to be to it, IMO you can never really succeed; because whatever you do, you'll always give more weight to some parts than others... and this goes for any religious book.

For instance, say the Bible was reduced to a single word: GOD... you'd still end up with a million different sects/schisms fighting over its true meaning; you'll have G-ians who think the G is all important but the O and D are less so... "God", O-ians who think the O is all important... "gOd", and D-ians who think the D is all important... "goD". Then on top of that you'll have people like Neo who thinks it makes more sense if you read it backwards... DOG-ians. That may seem a silly example, but as far as I'm concerned, it sums up the problem perfectly. The possibities are endless, and that's just for three letters, so imagine how exponentially worse it can be, and is with the religious books that exist... the Bible and the Quran for instance. You may try to be fair to it, but with something so vague and with so many different things you could focus on IMO you can't fail to introduce your own bias into its interpretation, no matter what you do.

According to my belief:

Sura 13, The Quran:
( 31 )   And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an], but to Allah belongs the affair entirely. Then have those who believed not accepted that had Allah willed, He would have guided the people, all of them? And those who disbelieve do not cease to be struck, for what they have done, by calamity - or it will descend near their home - until there comes the promise of Allah. Indeed, Allah does not fail in [His] promise.

If God willed; we'll be one in no time. But we won't:

Sura 11, The Quran:
( 118 )   And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ.
( 119 )   Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together."

We won't unite. But we gotta try our best before we leave life; anyways.

But the difference between Christianity and Islam, is that with Islam, these beliefs actually result in murder, torture, and terrorism on a massive scale. Christianity produces it's fair share of suffering in the world, but nowhere near on the scale of Islam. As I said, I have no idea what possible good you can see in it.

Currently; only.
But did you hear about the glory days of Christianity; when it emptied the Americas, Inquisition of the Moors in Spain; Crusaded Arabia; Manufactured the Rack; Wheeling; and so?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_co...tec_Empire
....

In this age though; did you ever watch the brutal mexican drug clashes? Narcos butcher Mexicans more brutally than ISIS; btw. I really think that some ISIS members are Narcos in disguise.

Point is; Christian countries are not in "piece". Just 80 years ago; they killed 60 Million people in 2 world wars. And the third is coming; mark my words. By the hands of people like Kim and Trump; if you ask me. Non-Muslims.

Countries which were Christian; are just taking a break before the next showdown:

https://thebulletin.org/timeline

---

We are both entitled to our opinions here. And you and I and every other member are free to challenge and debate those opinions. We should try to be adult-like and civil when doing so, but emotions get in the way and that doesn't always happen.

You have my word; I'll try my best and hopefully will.

[drfuzzy]

You are still trying to imply that being gay is a choice and you are so very wrong about that.

THIS  ^^^^  In spades.  It's not a choice.  It's deeply ingrained in a person's psyche.  

Do you REALLY believe that when my parents said, "you're only welcome back in our home if you come back married and preferably pregnant" that someone who was capable of feeling ANY attraction at all to a male wouldn't have taken the friend (who was very available) and gotten married?  Do you think that a person would give up their PARENTS FOREVER for a "fad"??  For a month or two, maybe.  Not for 29 years.  I did not choose to never see my beloved, gentle, brilliant Father and learn that he was dead three months after he was gone.  No.  Sex with a male was absolutely and utterly never, ever, ever an option.  I would quite literally kill myself to avoid it.  Not even remotely kidding.

Oh, btw, for those who are claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder, the American Psychological Association declared in 1975 that it is not.  It is simply a part of the broad spectrum of human sexuality.  

My total revulsion and nausea at repulsive male parts and the male stench MIGHT be a disorder.  My orientation is not.  I've known for an absolute fact since the age of 12 that it was unchangeable.  Therapy and conversion therapy did not make a dent.  I am only capable of being sexually and emotionally attracted to my own gender.  I never made the choice, in fact, I begged god and preachers and therapists for a decade to change me.  It's not possible.

[emjay]

Well, in my view it's only apparently innate, or as good as innate, from a first person perspective. Ie you hit puberty and start having all these feelings and desires you never had before; in either case they come out of nowhere experientially/subjectively, but in your view (if I understand correctly) their source is genetic, but in my view, they are the result of prior environmental learning that has been going on since birth... maybe some genetics as well but as I said I lean more towards nurture/environmental learning. Either way, by the time they appear consciously they're pretty much fixed, with further learning/experience only steering their further development. So either way there's no difference between the net result; something that feels innate.

"Sex/intercourse" is innate in my perspective. But choosing the mate that would get the organ ready for operation (in the case of men: penetration); is up to what the brain is used to; in terms of Dopamine producing triggers defined through the neuron networks formed by the experiences of the person.

That is arguably, and IMO, probably because you and I are both bisexual; that is, we arguably have a distorted view of the level of conscious choice involved in all this because we both already have established neural pathways in both directions (ie "what the brain is used to"), gay and straight. For us, either of those pathways could be further positively reinforced or likewise deprived of reinforcement; as it stands, I identify far more as gay than I do as straight... maybe an 80/20 split; but that 20% straight is still perfectly well established and potent and if I was to focus my thoughts and attention on my straight side, at the expense of my gay side, that split could easily swing in the opposite direction. But I am much more emotionally attracted to men than I am to women... with women it's more carnal... I get more out emotionally of gay relationships than I do straight relationships, and thus prefer them. The point is though, though as a bisexual it is perfectly possible for me to do this... because I already know from experience that I can do this and go through more gay 'phases' or straight phases depending on where I put my attention... there is absolutely no reason for me to do so and certainly not to please religious bigots and barbarians, and God(s) I don't believe in.

And for someone who is not bisexual... someone who is 100% gay or straight... they do not have this same choice. The most they can do is abstain (ie deny positive reinforcement) but they do not have anything to replace it with because they do not have an established 'seed' as it were of the opposite orientation. In other words, the choice available to us as bisexuals is largely superficial; working with what already exists and is well established, but for a 100% gay/straight person, there is only one seed that is established.

...
I won't say conscious appearance of the choice means its fixed. I prefer to think that we can affect any part of our consciousness anytime we want.

That's the point, it's conscious; as described above, we (as in you and I, as bisexuals) have two conscious 'seeds' that we can consciously influence with choice by feeding one and denying the other if we so choose. That's what I mean by fixed... it is a desire that has broken through into conscious awareness and therefore can be acted upon, or not as the case may be. Fixed is probably the wrong word, solid might be better... tangible. But those initial seeds themselves, are what I consider to be innate or as good as; they are what 'pops up out of nowhere' during puberty... that is, prior to that they were being subconsiously learned (or genetically influenced, if that is a person's belief) since birth but were not conscious enough to be influenced with conscious choice. They come into conscious awareness at puberty, IMO, but what comes into conscious awareness, is innate or as good as innate because it was subconsciously learned prior to that. For us, two seeds popped up, but for purely gay or straight people, perhaps only one. Puberty is a time of exploration, experimentation, and discovery for a child, so even if more than one seed pops up but the child later becomes totally gay or straight, it is not the right of religion, or anyone else for that matter, to attempt to interfere with that process; to attempt to interfere with which seed(s) a child chooses to reinforce... that's entirely up to them and what feels right for them... and no-one else can or should, make that decision for them. In my own case, my parents didn't have the chance thankfully, because I didn't come out until I was fifteen and by then it was well and truly established... but after I did come out, then all the religious crap came in and the birthday presents of books like "Homosexuality: The Straight Agenda" and statements like 'it's just a phase'.

---

---

Freedom of opinion must allow me to judge the act according to my beliefs and personal investigations; I'm a bigot if I begin to hurt other directly with my opinion. But my opinion about homosexuality is a personal opinion; applied on me by me; and I don't force it on anybody else.

The whole issue in referring to this as an illness, that it's hard to digest. But it's ignorant for real, to think that a mental path that got formed through different experiences and different environments, is a "bigoted description".

But how can I describe my personal experience; then? If I shut up because of somebody; then that is just my right to express myself got stepped on; and that is the de-facto bigoted method; suppressing the voice of the minority. I'm not hurting anybody with my opinion at least. And people should seriously cut the ego off, and stop treating the word "mental" as "crazy".

---

When the Quran came; God didn't order humanity to live the "Roman city" life, a life full of theaters and gladiators and..gossip, but it said this to humans this:


A person living to watch what others did is a lowlife; if you ask me. You only observe others to learn; to make lovers; to make friends; but practicing negative assumption, gossip and so.

But what do I do, if a dictatorship like the Sauds, enforced an oppressive religious system to keep control over schools so people never revolt; and the aftermath of that is the prevention of male and female interaction until sex becomes a same gender thing?

Sunni/Shiite Muslims are the first cause of homosexuality in the region. And when it takes place; they stone the gay couple.
But still; they get to flirt with Ivanka Trump as a royal family; while we fuck each other for pleasure; or even fuck goats to get off.

I can't ignore my experience and move with what so many say. If I did so earlier; I wouldn't be here.

---

The person who harass you because you take it from the ass is a bully.
The person who french-kiss his boyfriend inside a mosque is a bully.

Both are inconsiderate, both are assholes.

---

We are both entitled to our opinions here. And you and I and every other member are free to challenge and debate those opinions. We should try to be adult-like and civil when doing so, but emotions get in the way and that doesn't always happen.

Sorry, I guess I should put the extra i back in Shiite then