Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[Cyberman]

You have clearly not seen Shrek

You think you're joking; that has actually been cited around here as an explanation.

[Drich]

For me this is simply not a problem, I believe we procreate hopefully we born in a country that allows us freedoms and then enjoy life to the full.

I have a few questions though for all who believe in original sin, given that sin had entered the world why did god allow more people to be born he could simply have stopped procreation and allowed the generation of sin to die out, just like he barred a generation of Israelites from entering the promised land because of sin.

Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

I'm not asking why god allows suffering, but rather why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?

to be tested, so the we would know if given the freedom from the knowledge of God what our hearts would choose. To serve God or to serve self.

Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

These really are questions for any theist, contributions though from anyone are welcome.

In God's house there are many mansions/dwelling places. I would say till those spaces are filled.

[Harry Nevis]

No you don't miss out on anything if you never existed, there is no body/soul there to miss anything
No you are not been punished if you never existed, no body/soul ever existed to be punished.

To say you are been punished or missing out like you are being put to death for something is silly.

It's not as though god had an excuse he had already seen his angels deserting him, (according to the bible)  to go on and create people he know would suffer is just nonsense. unless he embodies the perfect selfish being.

Why do you see it as selfish to create other beings and give them eternal happiness?

Because it's not a gift. You have to perform for the ringmaster if you want your prize.

[possibletarian]

No you don't miss out on anything if you never existed, there is no body/soul there to miss anything
No you are not been punished if you never existed, no body/soul ever existed to be punished.

To say you are been punished or missing out like you are being put to death for something is silly.

It's not as though god had an excuse he had already seen his angels deserting him, (according to the bible)  to go on and create people he know would suffer is just nonsense. unless he embodies the perfect selfish being.

Why do you see it as selfish to create other beings and give them eternal happiness?

Well, creating free willed people (if indeed free will is true) who use that free will, to be free willed, then condemning them to eternal torture is insane. This is all about what god wants, not what his (supposedly) beloved free willed people want. It's certainly not about you or your happiness at all. God is more liker a selfish parent who beats his kids if they don't agree on the best football team, but loves the child who supports the same team. You seem more like the child who isn't getting beaten saying 'well they have free will to support the same team, why should my happiness be disrupted because of their choice'.

But lets take your argument and take it to its logical conclusion, lets say the rapture happens tomorrow, what about the people who after that would have turned to god, at first it will only be a few, then thousands, which turn into millions, which turn into trillions. There will be countless people who would otherwise have followed god in your words missing out or being punished.

Concerning the rapture, it's clear from the new testament that they expected it in their life time, been a while now, you would have thought a few lights would come on in a theists head.

---

For me this is simply not a problem, I believe we procreate hopefully we born in a country that allows us freedoms and then enjoy life to the full.

I have a few questions though for all who believe in original sin, given that sin had entered the world why did god allow more people to be born he could simply have stopped procreation and allowed the generation of sin to die out, just like he barred a generation of Israelites from entering the promised land because of sin.

Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

I'm not asking why god allows suffering, but rather why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?

to be tested, so the we would know if given the freedom from the knowledge of God what our hearts would choose. To serve God or to serve self.

Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

These really are questions for any theist, contributions though from anyone are welcome.

In God's house there are many mansions/dwelling places. I would say till those spaces are filled.

Why test, when you supposedly created them and knew them at birth. In your scenario it seems as if god does not know who and who will not come to him. Why not for instance only allow those to be born who will gain eternal life. God according to the bible can raise people for a purpose (they supposedly still have free will) so it is possible for a god to do.

Being tested so that we know is just silly, we can still have free will and choose god if only those who will be saved are allowed to be born.

The only scenario that makes in sense in creation, is that god created some purposely to go to hell for eternity, if he pre-knew then that was his purpose.

[John V]

Well, creating free willed people (if indeed free will is true) who use that free will, and because its not something you like, then condemning them to eternal torture is insane.

No it isn't. Expecting equal treatment of all people regardless of their use of free will is insane.

This is all about what god wants, not what his (supposedly) beloved free willed people want.

If that were the case, it's not problematic seeing as God is the creator.

However, since people who want to be with god get that, and people who don't want to be with him aren't with him, it's not all about what god wants.

And regarding "(supposedly) beloved" - as I noted in another recent thread, the Bible says that god doesn't consider himself the father of all. It says he endures such people with longsuffering. Not everyone is supposedly beloved of god.

But lets take your argument and take it to its logical conclusion, lets say the rapture happens tomorrow, what about the people who after that would have turned to god, at first it will only be a few, then thousands, which turn into millions, which turn into trillions.

What about them? God as creator has the right to make the cutoff wherever he wants.

[possibletarian]

Why do you see it as selfish to create other beings and give them eternal happiness?

Because it's not a gift.  You have to perform for the ringmaster if you want your prize.

It's touted as a free gift, including the faith to believe, unfortunately it's impossible to tell faith from delusion.

[John V]

Why test, when you supposedly created them and knew them at birth. In your scenario it seems as if god does not know who and who will not come to him. Why not for instance only allow those to be born who will gain eternal life. God according to the bible can raise people for a purpose (they supposedly still have free will) so it is possible for a god to do.

Read Romans 9. The saved know God more fully because of the suffering and evil in the creation, and therefore have a deeper relationship with him.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[possibletarian]

No it isn't. Expecting equal treatment of all people regardless of their use of free will is insane.

But torturing them for eternity is insane.

If that were the case, it's not problematic seeing as God is the creator.

Well for me this is all hypothetical more of an insight into just how far people are wiling to go once they believe.

However, since people who want to be with god get that, and people who don't want to be with him aren't with him, it's not all about what god wants.

And regarding "(supposedly) beloved" - as I noted in another recent thread, the Bible says that god doesn't consider himself the father of all. It says he endures such people with longsuffering. Not everyone is supposedly beloved of god.

So 'for god so loved the world' and ' desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' is actually a little less clear ?
for a god who loves the world and desires everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth he is acting very oddly. He is responsible for all creation and everything that happens within it, after all we are all his creation, and therefore his responsibility.

What about them? God as creator has the right to make the cutoff wherever he wants.

Well if that were true he could have cut off pro creation as soon as sin occurred, you can't argue a point for yourself, then say 'so what' to the same argument for other believers without resorting to the good old 'his ways are not our ways' get out of jail free card.

---

Why test, when you supposedly created them and knew them at birth. In your scenario it seems as if god does not know who and who will not come to him. Why not for instance only allow those to be born who will gain eternal life. God according to the bible can raise people for a purpose (they supposedly still have free will) so it is possible for a god to do.

Read Romans 9. The saved know God more fully because of the suffering and evil in the creation, and therefore have a deeper relationship with him.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Yes the writer had realised at this time that Jesus perhaps was not returning soon not willing to admit perhaps they had been had, began to make excuses, a quick read of the new testament will quickly show you how the churches of the time had already began to fall apart.

[Drich]

Why test, when you supposedly created them and knew them at birth. In your scenario it seems as if god does not know who and who will not come to him. Why not for instance only allow those to be born who will gain eternal life. God according to the bible can raise people for a purpose (they supposedly still have free will) so it is possible for a god to do.

Being tested so that we know is just silly, we can still have free will and choose god if only those who will be saved are allowed to be born.

The only scenario that makes in sense in creation, is that god created some purposely to go to hell for eternity, if he pre-knew then that was his purpose.

I did not say the test results were for God.

Let's say in the process of making individuals with free choice/not free will, 1/3 will ulitmatly not want to be with their creator.

Now let say the creator knows who is who.

But the created doesnt.

Is it then fair to create and then throw said creation away (before you try and draw a simple minded parallel to judge God think on how 'we' do the very same thing with our unwanted babies) without established cause or reason to both parties?

So then God gives us a moment in time apart from his known glory to prove to ourselves who we are. If he allowed us time to live with complete knowledge of Him then we would ultimately be intimidated into following God. However removed frm the glory of God where God is a possibility and not a certainty we are allowed to live out our truest sense or we are allow to become who we really are. (while the cat's away sort of thing)

This way at the end of you life and through your final jusgement there is no doubt in your mind or heart that where you will be is where you belong. There is peace to be found in Hell in the comfort that God has rightfully placed us where we need be. or at least that is what i felt just before what was me was to be consumed by Hell fire. My only regret in all of that was, what if I had only known the truth, and not the atheist propaganda that was/is being force fed and pawned off as higher thought.

[The Grand Nudger]

I did not say the test results were for God.

Let's say in the process of making individuals with free choice/not free will, 1/3 will ulitmatly not want to be with their creator.

That number more accurately represents the people that do....assuming that your god isn;t forgotten sometime between now and armageddon, like the rest have been.

Now let say the creator knows who is who.

But the created doesnt.

Is it then fair to create and then throw said creation away (before you try and draw a simple minded parallel to judge God think on how 'we' do the very same thing with our unwanted babies) without established cause or reason to both parties?

God doesn't seem to be interested in fairness, I don;t know why he;d choke on the issue of annihilating his creation.  He's done it before, he'll do it again.

So then God gives us a moment in time apart from his known glory to prove to ourselves who we are. If he allowed us time to live with complete knowledge of Him then we would ultimately be intimidated into following God. However removed frm the glory of God where God is a possibility and not a certainty we are allowed to live out our truest sense or we are allow to become who we really are. (while the cat's away sort of thing)

You mean, like those rubes jesus bullied into believing by his presence?  God sure does change his mind about how o do this whole god thing alot...that or you don't have the slightest clue wtf you're talking about.  50/50.  

This way at the end of you life and through your final jusgement there is no doubt in your mind or heart that where you will be is where you belong. There is peace to be found in Hell in the comfort that God has rightfully placed us where we need be. or at least that is what i felt just before what was me was to be consumed by Hell fire. My only regret in all of that was, what if I had only known the truth, and not the atheist propaganda that was/is being force fed and pawned off as higher thought.

Oh that's right, that one time god turned you into a newt.... and then you got better. I guess you can;t be bothered to remember all the whoppers you've told, but -waaaay- back in the day you told us that you came to god when he came to you...through the radio......somehow, since then..the story's morphed into a trip to hell and back.