One sentence that throws the problem of evil out of the window.

[Ravenshire]

You guys are the ones that keep telling me god is so and so.  It's not my problem if you keep describing a fucking monster, lol.  

It's not like -I- believe that god is anything at all.  Frankly, I can't help but think that if there were a god, it would be just a -skosh- better than the object of your fixations.

Calling him a monster is like shooting punches at the skies. He's a fact of this world; the eternal refugee, God of the worlds. You can't be angry at facts ! that makes you quite..unstable.

Imagine a guy fist fighting gravitational pole

That's a hell of an assertion your making. Got any, you know, actual evidence to back it up?

[The Grand Nudger]

@Mystic
Something™ tells me you and Allah have a difference of opinion on that.  Who should I side with, in that disagreement?  You, or the lord of creation?

[Mystic]

Something™ tells me you and Allah have a difference of opinion on that.  Who should I side with, in that disagreement?  You, or the lord of creation?

Follow only what you know. If you know God disagrees with me on that, follow that. If you don't but just want it to be that God disagrees with me on that, then fight your desire and subdue it, and find the truth regarding the matter and not just make up the truth by your caprice.

[LadyForCamus]

MK, the sooner you realize most people here are atheists simply because of lack of evidence, rather than, 1. We aren't reading the book right, 2. We're angry at god, 3. We don't want to, or 4. All of the above, the better off you will be.  Try actually listening to the reasons people give you for their positions.  That's like...step one in any debate/discussion about anything.

I don't think there is lack of evidence for God, but I do think we Theists are not presenting the evidence well.

If there is evidence for God, then it should be, ya know, evident to us; regardless of how one individual chooses to present it.

[WinterHold]

Calling him a monster is like shooting punches at the skies. He's a fact of this world; the eternal refugee, God of the worlds. You can't be angry at facts ! that makes you quite..unstable.

Imagine a guy fist fighting gravitational pole

Sure, I've commented on that many times before, in this thread and in others.  If god gets his jollies by tossing people in the pit...well, he;s a god, there's nothing we can do about it...plenty of people will end up in the pit.

That, however, doesn't make him good, nor does it solve the problem of evil.  It explicitly affirms it.

If I was living under an earthly despot I probably couldn't do much about that either.  Strange how often this notion of "god" is so similar to the worst representatives of the human species, don't you think?  Was god the model that tyrants aspire to, or was he modeled after an aspiring tyrant?

Yep many would go there. God is the most merciful, but his torture is most severe. My guess is that tyrants try to be him, but that results in mutated freaks that can't and don't have what God has. That's why associating other entities with God is wrong.

[Mystic]

If there is evidence for God, then it should be, ya know, evident to us; regardless of how one individual chooses to present it.

Is this true? I doubt it. 

If you can show your thesis to be true, it would prove a lot.

But I find if a Math teacher doesn't teach well, it is not always the fault of the students.

Mind you sometimes a student can not try to understand enough nor focus nor do his homework, but sometimes you have a really bad teacher.

Also, even if it is evident to you, it doesn't mean you will accept. 

So we have three possibilities:

1. The presenter is presenting bad.
2. The listeners are not listening well.
3. The truth is manifest regardless of 1 and 2, and including possibly that the presenter presented well and the listeners heard well enough, but they don't accept.


So Atheism is not only explained by lack of evidence. There are other possible explanations.

[The Grand Nudger]

-and there we are explicitly affirming the problem of evil again, and that god is the definition of evil.

The problem with earthly tyrants..is that they're just not as good at it as god is.

[Catholic_Lady]

Man, this thread is moving fast lol

[Mystic]

Man, this thread is moving fast lol

I know which shows how deeply the problem of evil is to Atheism, even though, the argument is an argument from ignorance, even Atheist philosophers will tell you it is.  The probabilistic version of the argument of evil is a little better, but it is also an argument from ignorance.

So we see there are a lot of emotions, people are upset with the state of the world and its design.  I am upset with the state of the world, but not the design, since it had good outcomes possible and wonderful beautiful possibilities that just didn't happen despite God's grace and help.

[The Grand Nudger]

You know...someone once expressed astonishment that I could "get" religious people to say the sorts of shit they do in response to me, here on the boards.  Long time back and in another thread.  Can't remember who.  I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't.  As I suggested a few pages back....regardless of whether any of this horrid shit actually is true, religious people want it to be true.  They're palpably waiting for an opportunity to say the sorts of shit that any decent person would have the presence of mind to keep to themselves.   

All you have to do is hand them a megaphone and cheer them on.

@Mystic

It seems that gods grace and help didn't amount to much, then...huh? Somehow we managed to improve the design, lowly worms that we are. Some god. Some design. This is the "willing but not capable" conclusion of the PoE. Sure, he wanted it to be better..he tried...he moved on it like a bitch......but he just couldn't get there.