There Is No Sin!

[Astreja]

If that child has a name, and is set for the resurrection and eternal life and recognition, that's a different story, especially if every treasured moment in that person's life is able to be relived through a restored memory, but I am dealing with the dark side here.

Well, I am firmly of the opinion that that "story" is fictional.

[Amarok]

Dawkins on evolution and morality:






And evolutionary roots of religious thought:

Good video's but i don't agree in the slightest .

[Banned]

Moral reasoning 

What or who determines what is a crime or what is moral?

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Nothing matters to the dead when they're dead, you don't need evolution to reach that conclusion. Everything that matters, matters to the living while they're alive, and other people being dead doesn't change what matters now. We want to be comfortable, fulfilled, happy, loved, safe, and secure while we're alive, and hopefully have a long life to enjoy those things. Criminals are a threat to the things that we want, the things that matter to us, so we have to protect ourselves from them. We've quite reasonably concluded that criminals getting what they want doesn't mean it's okay for them to take what we have.

You're coming off as either extremely dense or extremely trollish.

I look dense because I was waiting for the correct response to my questions.
Thank you for a plain and true answer, and for being right on topic.

I love and accept your position for the now, just as Astreja wrote earlier. Beautifully said. You are all better human beings than I am, better intentioned, braver, more accountable.

Your life, the way you related to your loved ones, your loved ones, the world of people you interacted with, your whole life, all the details, of how you do things and have coped through thick and thin...

I think it is wrong and a crime to wipe that all out through death.
Fairness to me would be to restore every decent thing you've ever achieved in your character, and to compensate you for every single ounce of suffering and loss, and do the same to anyone worthy of your affection.
Yes, restore all things. Renew your best memories and relationships, give back your life and youth, give back the moments that went missing, because you are worth it.

It doesn't matter how long you live, death is never welcome.

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How is the supposed development of an ideology not a scientific fact?

BTW evolution science teaches that morality was developed by the process of evolution.
If you disagree you don't have sufficient backup from that community, to be able to call it accepted by that community.

The capacity for religious thinking is also a trait developed by the process of evolution.

Yes, that is what has been accepted about evolution, but others will disagree and see moral development as independant of evolution.
But if evolution is the progress of life - it would naturally include human thought and tendencies.

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...
Why does it have to be atemporal, universal, static, and purely absolute in order to be a 'moral sense'? Those qualities don't seem to apply to anything else in our universe, why should they be necessary for anything at all?

...

That's the question I want you to help me with, does morality have an absolute, and if not, can it be called moral?

With evolution we are looking at the refinement of moral standards within a society...
which (just like scientific conclusions) leaves with the possibility of being incorrect in the past and now.

But then whatever we are striving for, must have a summary, a goal, a simple outcome no?

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One wonders what keeps you from skullfucking all the ungodly children who won't be resurrected or recognized...and then one remembers that the religious have a particular history of -not- staying that red right hand..when it comes to ungodly children.
You've got the moral sense of a toaster.

So people who don't want to be in heaven because they're not allowed to string people up and burn them, ought to be tortured forever by being there?

I expect your morals to be found in an earlier stage of evolution.

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Well, I am firmly of the opinion that that "story" is fictional.

That's because you don't have the evidence for it, but that doesn't exclude you from the future life. There will be a lot of people there who never knew who God is, and who never knew of a new life prepared for them.

[The Grand Nudger]

-said the bouncing ball.

[Astreja]

Well, I am firmly of the opinion that that "story" is fictional.

That's because you don't have the evidence for it, but that doesn't exclude you from the future life. There will be a lot of people there who never knew who God is, and who never knew of a new life prepared for them.

Cool story, bro.  Needs a couple dozen dragons.

Your god seems like quite the busybody, "preparing" lives for people.  So much for that "free will" shit.

[Amarok]

What or who determines what is a crime or what is moral?

I just said moral reasoning and anybody who can use it . Seriously at this point i'm convinced you don't honestly care about the answer. 

[Banned]

Cool story, bro.  Needs a couple dozen dragons.

Your god seems like quite the busybody, "preparing" lives for people.  So much for that "free will" shit.

You have a mind and a choice don't you?
God is not going to save people who don't want to be, and who can't be happy in heaven.

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I just said moral reasoning and anybody who can use it . Seriously at this point i'm convinced you don't honestly care about the answer. 

I am not talking about your personal 'moral reasoning,' because you have already stated a few times that you would like to kill anyone who disagreed with you, which is what you do in your heart when you hate someone anyway.

The people who make and enforce the laws of the land, are the ones telling you what's moral. If you have been conditioned to comply, then you may like to fantasize that you are a good citizen and agree with those laws.

These laws are changeable with time, social pressure and circumstance, so what is moral today may not be moral tomorrow, there are no guaranteed absolutes in this system, which means that morality is relative and not absolute.

I don't know what pure and unchangeable morals you have in mind, but going by your history of posts, one of them would be the right to abuse people on the net.

[The Grand Nudger]

Many of us, Banned...don't have any such choice.  Astreja happens to be one of those people..so am I.  We could no more choose to believe in pixies than we could assent to your pixies regime. This, we're told, will lead to our destruction or punishment. Well, so be it, nothing I can do to stop that from happening, if it's something that happens.

Unless Jeffs about as good at destroying souls as he is at everything else, ofc.

As for the rest. Are laws the only reason -you- have for not doing x? I assume not. Wouldn;t it then stand to reason that laws are not the only reason (or in some cases any reason at all) that another person has for not doing x? I..personally, just don;t want to slap suckers out of babies mouths. The laws on that could change and change and change. That's irrelevant to me because I just don;t want to do it in the first place..and wouldn;t refer to any of those laws as an explanation for it;s moral status - just like I don't refer to any of gods laws as an explanation for moral status.

In fairness, I can see why laws would be useful to a person who utterly lacks a moral sense...........and that's precisely what we use them for, in the main. To compel people who just don't know better, or wouldn't care even if they did. Simpletons and aberrant minds. OFC, we end up dragnetting people compelled to commit crimes by their situation. The starving man who steals bread does know better and does care but he can't help but do it. It's unfortunate that it happens...but it's also amusing that gods law, in his great beneficent omniscience...... appears to be flawed in precisely this same way. Unlike our laws, however, god only has the one punishment. The harshest punishment..regardless of the nature of the crime or perpetrator.

Judge Jeff, super good at law, too!

[Amarok]

I am not talking about your personal 'moral reasoning,

Nor am i talking about personal moral reasoning i'm talking about moral reasoning .

 because you have already stated a few times that you would like to kill anyone who disagreed with you, 

I have never stated anything remotely like that . So straight up slander .

which is what you do in your heart when you hate someone anyway.

Nope killing someone involves actually physically killing them . And i never said i wanted to kill anyone.So your lying .

The people who make and enforce the laws of the land, are the ones telling you what's moral.

They may enforce laws but that not the point of what is moral as i already said . 

 If you have been conditioned to comply, then you may like to fantasize that you are a good citizen and agree with those laws.

Related to nothing i have said . Proving your not even listening 

These laws are changeable with time,

 Yup but morality is not nor is moral reasoning 

social pressure and circumstance,

Yup but morality is not nor is moral reasoning 

 so what is moral today may not be moral tomorrow

False 

, there are no guaranteed absolutes in this system,

 False 

which means that morality is relative and not absolute.

False 

I don't know what pure and unchangeable morals you have in mind, 

Yes you don't because you don't care to understand . You just want to preach because you like listening to yourself 

but going by your history of posts, one of them would be the right to abuse people on the net.

You call it abuse because you don't like being called out when your lies your strawman and slander.They is nothing wrong with calling something what it is . I called you what you are no matter how much you cloak it .And i won't stop no matter how much fake victimhood you  try and hide behind .

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You have a mind and a choice don't you? 

Asking a rational person to believe without evidence is not their choice . For you have asked them to be dishonest and lie to themselves 

God is not going to save people who don't want to be, and who can't be happy in heaven.

Then your god is no true god . A true  god could convince anyone . Your pathetic deity can't even make himself believable . Let convince non believers they need to be saved .  Truly a joke .

[vorlon13]

What or who determines what is a crime or what is moral?

I just said moral reasoning and anybody who can use it . Seriously at this point i'm convinced you don't honestly care about the answer. 

I think head counts and collection plate totals are involved in the calculation. Pastors who hold tight to some bit of strict interpretation of a "Biblical Truth" that the membership finds inconvenient will see the empty seats and notice a lighter tote to the bank Monday. It's a feed back loop they ignore at their peril.

Hell, Apostle Paul re-kick-started Jesus's lame religion into something hugely with the same technique. A modern era example, of course, would be so many churches doing a 180 on their divorce and subsequent remarriage prohibitions. Used to be a make or break issue for many denominations that now treat those adulterous remarriages as actual sacraments. Just in my lifetime has this occurred. Really amazing to watch a keystone of church dogma get chiseled out of the edifice and consigned to trash heap of religious history.

Really, really amazing. Such a huge change and barely a ripple of concern from anyone. I can't even tell if Jesus had a hissy fit about them changing His little rule there.