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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 19, 2018 at 9:42 pm
Well. gene duplication with subsequent divergence is equivalent to new information. In fact, the duplication itself is technically an increase of information. The subsequent divergence is produced through selection by the environment.
Remember that there is no law of 'conservation of information', so technically, information doesn't have to 'come from' anywhere. if that isn't satisfying, think about how *every* causal interaction actually produces information by allowing 'backtracking' to original conditions.
As others have pointed out, simple morphology of the molecules is a type of information that constrains subsequent reactions. In fact, that is one *primary* aspect of information that is most relevant to the biology of enzymes for example. Polarity is another big informational aspect of most molecules (including nucleotides).
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 19, 2018 at 10:24 pm
DNA information comes from the designer. Mind creating matter and information is the logical choice over inert matter doing anything. In the first place, matter to exist independent of mind would mean an infinite regression of matter which no one posits that or should know better than that since matter is a contingent reality.
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 19, 2018 at 10:26 pm
Cool story.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 19, 2018 at 10:28 pm
The same shithead designer that put the amusement park next to the waste disposal plant? That guy's an asshole.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 19, 2018 at 11:20 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2018 at 11:22 pm by Amarok.)
Keep chanting that delusion
Quote:Atheist Credo:
No such thing
Quote:An universe by chance which also just happened to admit the observer by chance
Not even a coherent statement
(March 19, 2018 at 10:24 pm)snowtracks Wrote: DNA information comes from the designer. Mind creating matter and information is the logical choice over inert matter doing anything. In the first place, matter to exist independent of mind would mean an infinite regression of matter which no one posits that or should know better than that since matter is a contingent reality.
Nope none of that follows
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 20, 2018 at 12:35 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2018 at 12:35 am by ignoramus.)
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Know God, Know fear.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 20, 2018 at 4:01 am
(March 19, 2018 at 9:42 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Well. gene duplication with subsequent divergence is equivalent to new information. In fact, the duplication itself is technically an increase of information. The subsequent divergence is produced through selection by the environment.
Indeed. The neutral gene theory holds that duplicated genes which are not detrimental to the fitness of the agent are retained because there is no pressure to get rid of them. Although they do not necessarily increase the fitness of the agent that has the duplicated gene, it does open up the search space for future generations because it is extra DNA that can be mutated.
I do this the whole time with my evolutionary algorithms. I cannot know a-priori how large the genotype needs to be, nor do I want it any larger than it needs to be. So I start off small and let it grow during the course of the evolutionary run.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 24, 2018 at 1:58 pm
(March 20, 2018 at 4:01 am)Mathilda Wrote: (March 19, 2018 at 9:42 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Well. gene duplication with subsequent divergence is equivalent to new information. In fact, the duplication itself is technically an increase of information. The subsequent divergence is produced through selection by the environment.
Indeed. The neutral gene theory holds that duplicated genes which are not detrimental to the fitness of the agent are retained because there is no pressure to get rid of them. Although they do not necessarily increase the fitness of the agent that has the duplicated gene, it does open up the search space for future generations because it is extra DNA that can be mutated.
I do this the whole time with my evolutionary algorithms. I cannot know a-priori how large the genotype needs to be, nor do I want it any larger than it needs to be. So I start off small and let it grow during the course of the evolutionary run. "The neutral gene theory" is a theory that needs all ready existing DNA information to garner more informaton.
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 24, 2018 at 2:27 pm
(March 24, 2018 at 1:58 pm)snowtracks Wrote: (March 20, 2018 at 4:01 am)Mathilda Wrote: Indeed. The neutral gene theory holds that duplicated genes which are not detrimental to the fitness of the agent are retained because there is no pressure to get rid of them. Although they do not necessarily increase the fitness of the agent that has the duplicated gene, it does open up the search space for future generations because it is extra DNA that can be mutated.
I do this the whole time with my evolutionary algorithms. I cannot know a-priori how large the genotype needs to be, nor do I want it any larger than it needs to be. So I start off small and let it grow during the course of the evolutionary run. "The neutral gene theory" is a theory that needs all ready existing DNA information to garner more informaton.
Well done on recognising that the neutral gene theory is a theory. Extra bonus points for recognising that theories are derived from evidence and observations.
We don't yet know how DNA first formed but it would have been some form of self-organisation. Science is always learning more.
Personally I hold to the metabolism-first school of abiogenesis.
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RE: How did our cells get their "information"?
March 25, 2018 at 2:00 pm
(This post was last modified: March 25, 2018 at 2:05 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(March 19, 2018 at 9:42 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Remember that there is no law of 'conservation of information', so technically, information doesn't have to 'come from' anywhere. if that isn't satisfying, think about how *every* causal interaction actually produces information by allowing 'backtracking' to original conditions.
Indeed, nothing is created out of nowhere, and no information is "produced" or "added" out of nowhere.
All change basically involves recycling.
(March 19, 2018 at 10:24 pm)snowtracks Wrote: DNA information comes from the designer.
What designer? Where?
(March 20, 2018 at 4:01 am)Mathilda Wrote: Indeed. The neutral gene theory holds that duplicated genes which are not detrimental to the fitness of the agent are retained because there is no pressure to get rid of them.
It's why I think that ultimately it's not 'surivival of the fittest' it's survival of the survivors. Or IOW literally any organism that can survive for whatever reasons survives, even if it maintains many unfit elements or gets lucky. It's merely that fitter survivors tend to be better on the whole at surviving. But even the very fittest survivors don't have to be perfectly fit, and there's no reason for them to not maintain unfit elements, if they're still able to outsurvive the competition that is less fit than they are. In fact, it's possible to imagine scenarios where the organism is *too* fit. Imagine a predator so efficient at killing and eating all its prey that all its food sources become extinct so it becomes extinct itself. Such a predator would become extinct after its food sources did, but a predator that was slightly less efficient and didn't make all its food sources extinct, would stick around.
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