Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[bennyboy]

Racists depend on that frustration and resilience.  In the case of people who aren't committed racists (like Benny, I assume), but who have..for a variety of reasons and through a variety of channels, picked up racist talking points (like some sort of terrible osmosis, lol) I like to hold out hope and put in the time.

1)  Hired a bunch of black people.
2)  Particular people were irresponsible, shitty workers.  (one of them was arguably the best teacher I had this year)
3)  I directed irresponsible, shitty workers to be responsible, reasonably good workers (basic stuff like show up on time, actually check homework they've assigned, provide sick notes if claiming a sick day, etc.)
4)  Workers start telling me I don't know what it's like to be black, and Korea's such a hard place for them to be hired (???), and me asking them to bring a doctor's note if they were claiming a sick day was a "violation of their human rights, and how dare you, and. . . "

This isn't "picking up talking points," dude, no matter how much you want to keep spinning it that way.  The people involved clearly had a very well-established idea that certain demographic talking points were such all-overriding trump cards, that to attempt to hold a rational discourse once they'd been played was ITSELF an act of overt racism.  "Oh, I'm talking about my black suffering, and you are just going to keep on talking about doctor's notes, like you don't even CARE?  HOW DARE YOU!?!?!?!?! *rage rage rage*" Not like I literally read through the entire fucking contract before signing everyone, and I very specifically explain the policy with sick days.

It's annoying AF.  And if expressing annoyance at fucktards who happen to be members of some demographic group dubbed "victim" by the PC left is legislated against, then we might as well just throw out the concept of truth altogether, because actual truth has been replaced by the Book of Allowable Truths™.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why do you think I'm referring to that when I note that you have reliably communicated the language of white victimization in this thread? I do note that you -employ- that to reenforce those talking points - to contend that you know they are true by reference to your life experience....but that's entirely unremarkable.

[bennyboy]

My narrative that there should be consequences for racist speech and a dedicated effort to reduce institutional and societal inequality and injustice?  Yeah, just terrifying.  Some People™ wake up at night shivering in their bleached white sheets on account of it, lol. 

Hmmm sounds good. Except by "racist," you mean "directed at those races deemed Victims ™, by those races deemed oppressive ™" not the much simpler "predicated on race."

I suppose you'll tell me that your True PC Scotsman would never call any human beings trash, hey? Because since Team White on average are doing pretty good, prejudice directed toward lower working-class white people is just a force for equality and justice?

---

Why do you think I'm referring to that when I note that you have reliably communicated the language of white victimization in this thread?  I do note that you -employ- that to reenforce those talking points - to contend that you know they are true by reference to your life experience....but that's entirely unremarkable.

What language, specifically?

"I don't consider myself racist, but I don't like being referred to in racist terms either?"

"I'm not allowed to say anything derogatory toward individuals if they are members of a protected demographic, but all members of all protected demographics have the right to verbally assault me without restraint?"

"I'm proud of my white heritage.  White people have achieved many great things, and it makes me feel proud to be white?  I don't like you lumping me in with every historical white asshole who ever lived?"

[The Grand Nudger]

Hmmm sounds good.  Except by "racist," you mean "directed at those races deemed Victims ™, by those races deemed oppressive ™" not the much simpler "predicated on race."

I suppose you'll tell me that your True PC Scotsman would never call any human beings trash, hey?  Because since Team White on average are doing pretty good, prejudice directed toward lower working-class white people is just a force for equality and justice?

No, Benny, I just mean racists, which isn't some sanitized "predicated on race"..but -antipathy- predicated on race.  Is there supposed to be some pc problem with calling trashy people trashy?  What might that be?  Do you think it's prejudiced to notice that there is a preponderance of racists among lower working class whites, or to present the origins of that racism and how it's been nurtured and exploited in order to get those same lower working class whites to vote against their interests?  Or..even deeper into leftists politics, how that exploitation makes this a class issue? 

---

What language, specifically?

"I don't consider myself racist, but I don't like being referred to in racist terms either?"

Yeah, sure Benny, that must be it, because in 50 pages you've never once suggested that there is an attempt to abrogate your rights.  In fifty pages you've never suggested that there is discrimination of whites.  In 50 pages you've never suggested that there is a stigmitization of whites.  In 50 pages you've never expressed a denial of pride or angst over your perceived esteem, because white.  In fifty pages, you haven't once referred to an example to demonstrate the truth of these contentions that..upon inspection, turned out to be complete and utter horseshit.

Nope, never not once, ever.  

"I'm not allowed to say anything derogatory toward individuals if they are members of a protected demographic, but all members of all protected demographics have the right to verbally assault me without restraint?"

Who says you can't call an asshole an asshole? If you call an asshole an asshole..though, you probably should expect a few words in return, lol.  

"I'm proud of my white heritage.  White people have achieved many great things, and it makes me feel proud to be white?  I don't like you lumping me in with every historical white asshole who ever lived?"

...........................

[Amarok]

The only thing radical about it is how you paint it.

If you say so, I guess.  

I had a problem with black people pulling the black card.  You started with this truly impressive yarn you are weaving where people who don't want to have to deal with political bullshit in mundane conversations are all puppets of the alt-right script machine, that they are casting a narrative of victimization and white genocide.

You, Benny,...you..have been duped by the alt right.  You keep demonstrating that with rants and examples that turn out to be alt right fantasies.  There are plenty of lilly white faces in the world not suffering from white anxiety.  

But here's the thing.  I can see the hysteria with which YOU, a self-professed member of the PC left, are spinning this big yarn of white conspiracy.  I then have to ask myself-- is the average member of the PC left going to be equally hysterical, more so, or less so?

There's no white conspiracy, lol, there's a white supremacist push to rebrand themselves and scoop up allies..and, failing that, reduce intra-set support between white supremacy opposed ideologies.  

Then we go back to the issue of language control.  The idea that people like you should ever manage to legislate your narrative is quite chilling to me, because legislating bullshit cannot represent a good to a society based on the idea of liberaty.

My narrative that there should be consequences for racist speech and a dedicated effort to reduce institutional and societal inequality and injustice?  Yeah, just terrifying.  Some People™ wake up at night shivering in their bleached white sheets on account of it, lol. 

Truth

[Shell B]

Another display of the effectiveness of narrative framing.  

Political correctness and social justice aren't far left, they're core issues of the left.  Foundational, even - in that they are inextricable from notions of class.  That they're framed as being far left by the white supremacist infected mainstream right is a bid to scare the shit out of anxious people with ghost stories and peel away leftists and even more specifically centrists from supporting those initiatives.  There's nothing particularly radical in telling folks not to blurt out ethnic slurs on teevee, that this would have consequences..... or to seek a greater equality in a society that attempts to define itself as a nation of equals.  As I've commented on many times..if you ask a person their opinion of either issue as they are..rather than as the right has framed them in opposition.....you can expect to find that the same person sees them as unobjectionable, unremarkable, and almost trivially right minded - downright uncontroversial.  OFC we want equality, ofc there should be (and are) consequences for racist speech.  

There is, otoh, something very radical in the white victimization routine.

I do agree that these discussions are generally fruitless, talking a committed racist out of being a racist is..for the most part, impossible.  Racists depend on that frustration and resilience.  In the case of people who aren't committed racists (like Benny, I assume), but who have..for a variety of reasons and through a variety of channels, picked up racist talking points (like some sort of terrible osmosis, lol) I like to hold out hope and put in the time.  If you can demonstrate the origins of the narrative and it's factual inadequacy*, it's at least conceivable that a person might step back and say "fuck, not gonna fall for that shit again".

I know I did.  : shrugs :

*and if or when that fails, teasing them, appealing to any sense they have of how ridiculous and amusing their objections might be.  Gotta come at it from all sides, shit's really well dug-in at this point.  Any and all of this can fail, can backfire, ofc, but being silent in the face of a creeping ethnostate is to be complicit in it's formation.  It's doing the racists work for them...and they know it, that's the goal of normalization.

Dear lord, Khem. I'm simply referring to him shrugging you off as far left and you shrugging him off as alt-right. I just pointed out that reparations aren't an alt-right baby. I'm not getting roped into this.

[The Grand Nudger]

I understand where you're coming from..but in the context of this convo they are.  The still (and forever) unrealized fear of people suffering from white anxiety is that reparations means taking what is rightfully the white mans and giving it to the undeserving black man.   That..somehow, the scales are being (or will be) unfairly tipped against one and in favor of the other. That the black man can now or will one day be able to stick it to the white man.

Yes, Benny shrugs me off as a far left radical, but that's due to narrative framing, not due to political correctness or social justice being far left issues - even though I am, coincidentally, a far left radical in ways entirely absent and opposed to any form of leftism in the US (tidily explaining a part of my refusal to participate in a vote between the right and the right-lite, lol).  For my part, I actually don't shrug him off as alt right, I've wasted a few pages of these many telling him that over and over, but he has white anxiety...so it doesn't hit home. That's been the success story of white supremacist propagandizing - they've spread the disease far beyond the traditionally afflicted.

-and precisely because those newly afflicted really are decent, generally non racist people..they simply cannot accept or comprehend the fact that they've been manipulated into advocating for those positions.

"I've been parroting the racists? The fuck you say, I'm not a racist! Fuck you fuck you fuck you, you're the racist, and fuck people pulling the race card on ME!"

I will say this, though...if a person has been inadvertently taken in by the recruiting propaganda of white supremacy, and communicates it with any sort of reliability..a person pulling the race card on them probably isn't coming out of a vacuum.

[bennyboy]

No, Benny, I just mean racists, which isn't some sanitized "predicated on race"..but -antipathy- predicated on race.  Is there supposed to be some pc problem with calling trashy people trashy?  What might that be? 

I think either you're living in a bubble, or pretending to be. Are you going to pretend that "redneck" or "trailer park trash" isn't a demographic identity-based derogatory term? How many times have you heard someone say, "Compton projects trash" or "former slave trash"?

It's pretty clear to me that the words "trailer park trash" are a racist and classist term used for poor white people, and that the PC left are for the most part pretty okay with its use. If you deny this is true, then I'm going to be confirmed in my understanding that truth is your enemy, and that the dogma of the Book of Allowable Truths™ allows for no quarrel.

"I'm proud of my white heritage.  White people have achieved many great things, and it makes me feel proud to be white?  I don't like you lumping me in with every historical white asshole who ever lived?"

...........................

Well, this argument has been made in this thread, has it not? That white people who express pride are racist, because they selectively choose not to focus on the harm that white people have done? Are black people who express pride expected also to present a balanced view, and present the harms done by black people? How about Asians? How about Natives?

You can roll eyes, or call it a "white victimhood script" or whatever you want. But if you demand that truth be overlooked for Truth™, with the attempt of championing an entire group of people against another entire group, without reference to individual merit, then it's 100% crystal clear to me: you're in favor a an explicitly racist ideology, and I take issue with that.

---

I understand where you're coming from..but in the context of this convo they are.  The still (and forever) unrealized fear of people suffering from white anxiety is that reparations means taking what is rightfully the white mans and giving it to the undeserving black man.   That..somehow, the scales are being (or will be) unfairly tipped against one and in favor of the other.  That the black man can now or will one day be able to stick it to the white man.  

Who has made these arguments, or even implied them, except in the sense of guilt of association of ideas by which you take my dislike of a PC left demographics-based world view and attempt to project onto my dislike of that ideological approach an implicit support for an alt-right demographics-based world view?

All along, I've been saying that I believe in individual merit rather than group demonizations or reparations. I believe in an actual equality, right here, right now, of rights, privileges and responsbilities.

Yes, Benny shrugs me off as a far left radical, but that's due to narrative framing, not due to political correctness or social justice being far left issues - even though I am, coincidentally, a far left radical in ways entirely absent and opposed to any form of leftism in the US (tidily explaining a part of my refusal to participate in a vote between the right and the right-lite, lol).  For my part, I actually don't shrug him off as alt right, I've wasted a few pages of these many telling him that over and over, but he has white anxiety...so it doesn't hit home.  That's been the success story of white supremacist propagandizing - they've spread the disease far beyond the traditionally afflicted.

Please. Your insincere platitudes have been pretty transparent. "I'm willing to believe that Benny is isn't an alt-right racist, he's just carrying the script due to his inability to arrive at his world view on his own."

And I don't even have a problem with the far-left. I support, for example, a welfare state in which people are given, as a constitutional right, enough support to give them a fair chance in life. In American terms, I'd say that is far-left. But there's a difference between that and telling people that differential rights to language and self-expression, due to membership in any demographic, represent a moral right.

I'd say allow all speech-- all of it, as hateful and horrible as it is. Let people rage at it. Let them fight in the fucking streets over it. But let them speak.

OR declare that racism and all forms of prejudice are not acceptable. Wrap the entire population in bubble wrap, and just call everybody "they" from now on.

Oh. And one more thing. I've never told anyone here they can call me Ben or Benny. Either use my tag name, or you can refer to me as Benjamin. As for my personal pronoun of choice-- please refer to me as "specialsnowflakewhowantsaspecialpronoun" and when using the possessive form, stick to "specialsnowflakewhowantsaspecialpronounzer." You'd better do it, or you are an alt-right bigot!

[The Grand Nudger]

No, Benny, I just mean racists, which isn't some sanitized "predicated on race"..but -antipathy- predicated on race.  Is there supposed to be some pc problem with calling trashy people trashy?  What might that be? 

I think either you're living in a bubble, or pretending to be.  Are you going to pretend that "redneck" or "trailer park trash" isn't a demographic identity-based derogatory term?  How many times have you heard someone say, "Compton projects trash" or "former slave trash"?

It's pretty clear to me that the words "trailer park trash" are a racist and classist term used for poor white people, and that the PC left are for the most part pretty okay with its use.  If you deny this is true, then I'm going to be confirmed in my understanding that truth is your enemy, and that the dogma of the Book of Allowable Truths™ allows for no quarrel.

It's a bit more specific, Benny.  Not every rural white is a redneck or trailer park trash.  Hell.  I'm a redneck.  Thing is, whites aren't historically disenfranchised in any meaningful sense...that's just some ground leveling business in the normalizing effort. People who weren't regarded -as- whites, were, constantly, but we've all congealed into a single mass nowadays..even the miscegenated ones. lol

Well, this argument has been made in this thread, has it not?  That white people who express pride are racist, because they selectively choose not to focus on the harm that white people have done?  Are black people who express pride expected also to present a balanced view, and present the harms done by black people?  How about Asians?  How about Natives?

Has it, by whom?  Tell me more about the denial of your pride.

You can roll eyes, or call it a "white victimhood script" or whatever you want.  But if you demand that truth be overlooked for Truth™, with the attempt of championing an entire group of people against another entire group, without reference to individual merit, then it's 100% crystal clear to me: you're in favor a an explicitly racist ideology, and I take issue with that.

I'm more of a "why don't you poor fuckers realize that you're all one class and stop attacking your peers to the benefit of your owners" kinda guy.....but tell me more about how the ideologies explicitly opposed to racism are, in fact, the real racists.  

Tell me more about the stigma you face and the dire threat to "truth" presented by political correctness and social justice.

 : obligatory eye roll in the face of yet another white supremacist talking point :

Please.  Your insincere platitudes have been pretty transparent.  "I'm willing to believe that Benny is isn't an alt-right racist, he's just carrying the script due to his inability to arrive at his world view on his own."

I'm very sincere, I hold you in high esteem, lol..and I don't think that you're incapable, I just note that the normalization of white supremacy has been very..very effective.  You're not supposed to realize that you've picked it up. It's supposed to seem plausible. It's supposed to be trivial enough to conform to some personal experience or another.

And I don't even have a problem with the far-left.  I support, for example, a welfare state in which people are given, as a constitutional right, enough support to give them a fair chance in life.  In American terms, I'd say that is far-left.  But there's a difference between that and telling people that differential rights to language and self-expression, due to membership in any demographic, represent a moral right.

I'd say allow all speech-- all of it, as hateful and horrible as it is.  Let people rage at it.  Let them fight in the fucking streets over it.  But let them speak.

OR declare that racism and all forms of prejudice are not acceptable.  Wrap the entire population in bubble wrap, and just call everybody "they" from now on.

Like I said, I expect that, when you get around to leaving the territory of the script and discuss what any given ideology is actually about, you'd find it all agreeable and uncontroversial.  

Oh.  And one more thing.  I've never told anyone here they can call me Ben or Benny.  Either use my tag name, or you can refer to me as Benjamin.  As for my personal pronoun of choice-- please refer to me as "specialsnowflakewhowantsaspecialpronoun" and when using the possessive form, stick to "specialsnowflakewhowantsaspecialpronounzer."  You'd better do it, or you are an alt-right bigot!

Okay Benjaminboy.  

You're hitting 4/5 over and over....don't you think there might be a correlation?

[Amarok]

Or i could take a page from Jordan Peterson school and call you ( offensive pronoun ) after all who are you to "compel" me to respect you ?