On Hell and Forgiveness

[robvalue]

God has to have all the medals, apparently, so that there is no possibility of a "bigger God" appearing from the shadows. I think that's at the heart of all this.

[Angrboda]

If God were to appear to everybody everywhere as unmistakably real, undoubtedly a few more people would believe in God and the redemption of Christ than do now.  Perhaps some who believe now would turn away, but it's more sensible to presume that more people who didn't previously turn to God then would do so than would turn away from him.  The consequence of those few turning toward God would result in eternal happiness for them.  The gains are thus infinite.  Moreover, Steve has repeatedly said that people who believe in God are more moral than those who don't.  So this is something that God could do which would be infinitely better for people as a whole, and which he chooses not to do.  So God is choosing a world that is infinitely worse than the one we could have.  How is a hidden God good again?

[robvalue]

It's good for business, that's for sure.

[LadyForCamus]

If God were to appear to everybody everywhere as unmistakably real, undoubtedly a few more people would believe in God and the redemption of Christ than do now.  Perhaps some who believe now would turn away, but it's more sensible to presume that more people who didn't previously turn to God then would do so than would turn away from him.  The consequence of those few turning toward God would result in eternal happiness for them.  The gains are thus infinite.  Moreover, Steve has repeatedly said that people who believe in God are more moral than those who don't.  So this is something that God could do which would be infinitely better for people as a whole, and which he chooses not to do.  So God is choosing a world that is infinitely worse than the one we could have.  How is a hidden God good again?

And according to Steve this is completely within god’s capability.  And, if it isn’t, then we’re chipping even more off of god’s supposed omnipotence.

[robvalue]

If God wants us to have eternal happiness, he could just give it to us. Clearly he wants there to be a chance that we don't have it, for some reason.

[polymath257]

What is the greatest number in the set of real numbers 0<X<1?

There isn't one. Even when here, while we have a precisely defined meaning for "greater" and "greatest", and a precisely defined range to choose from, there is no answer.

Once you start talking about God being the "most moral being" or whatever other stuff you try to apply to it, you've taken huge steps away in terms of any sort of definition or coherence; to expect an answer to that, let alone one that actually means anything, is fanciful in my opinion.

God is a big imaginary blob of ill-defined concepts. It morphs into whatever the theist wants it to be, depending on the question, or depending on what excuse it needs making on its behalf.

Even better: what is the largest ordered pair (x,y) such that x>=0, y>=0 and x+y<=1?

The largest possible value of x is 1. The largest possible value of y is 1. But there is no point close to having x=1 and y=1 simultaneously.

This is a case where the largest values of both x and y exist but there is simply no way to get both maximized at the same time.

It is amazing that even basic experience with partial orders will decimate this argument for the existence of a deity, but theists keep making the same, bad argument again and again.

[Crossless2.0]

If God were to appear to everybody everywhere as unmistakably real, undoubtedly a few more people would believe in God and the redemption of Christ than do now.  Perhaps some who believe now would turn away, but it's more sensible to presume that more people who didn't previously turn to God then would do so than would turn away from him.  The consequence of those few turning toward God would result in eternal happiness for them.  The gains are thus infinite.  Moreover, Steve has repeatedly said that people who believe in God are more moral than those who don't.  So this is something that God could do which would be infinitely better for people as a whole, and which he chooses not to do.  So God is choosing a world that is infinitely worse than the one we could have.  How is a hidden God good again?

Cue the ‘God doesn’t want to violate our free will’ argument.

Somehow, acknowledgement and worship doesn’t seem to count for Yahweh unless it’s performed by people who don’t have good, compelling reasons to do so. Slavish credulity, offered as an act of “freedom” is the ridiculous alleged bottom line.

[The Grand Nudger]

A certain segment of christiana would just agree that god could do all of that if it wanted to..and in fact -has- done that for those it chooses to save, but also tell you that mans will is not free to choose god.  Sin touches every part of our nature, after all.

Not fair? Too bad. God does what gods wants.

[Angrboda]

If God were to appear to everybody everywhere as unmistakably real, undoubtedly a few more people would believe in God and the redemption of Christ than do now.  Perhaps some who believe now would turn away, but it's more sensible to presume that more people who didn't previously turn to God then would do so than would turn away from him.  The consequence of those few turning toward God would result in eternal happiness for them.  The gains are thus infinite.  Moreover, Steve has repeatedly said that people who believe in God are more moral than those who don't.  So this is something that God could do which would be infinitely better for people as a whole, and which he chooses not to do.  So God is choosing a world that is infinitely worse than the one we could have.  How is a hidden God good again?

Cue the ‘God doesn’t want to violate our free will’ argument.

Somehow, acknowledgement and worship doesn’t seem to count for Yahweh unless it’s performed by people who don’t have good, compelling reasons to do so. Slavish credulity, offered as an act of “freedom” is the ridiculous alleged bottom line.

Christians want to have it both ways. They want to suggest that the evidence is sufficient to compel belief in a rational person, but at the same time claim that by providing sufficiently compelling evidence, God isn't compelling people to believe. You can't have it both ways. Either belief is a result of unreason or ignorance, or God is violating our free will by coming to earth and performing miracles and resurrections. Even Steve admits that reason alone isn't sufficient to bring a person to God. If what brings a person to God isn't reason, then belief is by definition irrational.

[The Grand Nudger]

True Belief™ is a gift bestowed by god.  Man cannot come to that state any other way. John 6:44.