Atheist Bible Study 1: Genesis

[Bucky Ball]

Genesis is a literary work, from a collection of texts from the Ancient Near East, and various phrases are "placed in his (the god's) mouth" by the authors/editors/redactors of the texts, and the things this god is "said to have said", reflects the views of the authors, and their view of the deity they chose to follow. These cultural views changed over time, and from situation to situation. "He" never actually "said" anything.

This Abimelech is mythical, as is Abraham, (or in any case Abraham cannot be verified historically ... and may be an oral construction based on a possible figure from the migrations from Ur.
Abimeleck is both a generic title (like "Pharoh") and an actual name for Philistine kings.
Inasmuch as the story of Abraham taking in and feeding strangers, (who turn out to be angels), was an actual attempt to portray genuine hospitality, (in a desert region where turning away a wandering stranger might result in death), there are any number of possible interpretations of the sister-wife story.

What IS undoubtedly important is what happens as a result of the return of Abraham's wife, in the story. Abimeleck returns Sarah and gave gifts, and offered a settlement OF LAND, and a thousand pieces of silver, possibly to buy a veil, thus as a criticism to her for not having worn a veil which, as a married woman, she ought to have done. A few years after this, Abimelech visited Abraham, who had moved southward beyond his territory, and there entered into a league of peace and friendship with him, (in the myth). It was said to have been confirmed by a mutual oath at Be'er-sheba. This is seen by some as a precursor to establish the right of occupation of Abraham's descendants to "the promised land", (which has not happened yet in the story). There are 7 wells at Beersheba, (and Abraham gives 7 lambs). The possible interesting connections, are at least two-fold. A well was the only legitimate place a (really) single woman could meet (run into) a man who was a stranger ... so maybe it was a way of saying to Abimeleck ... "go sit by the well, if you really want to meet a nice girl", AND this well which was given to Abraham by Abimeleck, was one of the old ways the "promised land" was demarcated (in shorthand or common parlance), .. ie "it stretched from Beersheba to Dan" (144 miles, Dan is in the North, and an important center of early worship).

The Treaty at Beersheba
22 At that time Abimelek and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, “God is with you in everything you do. 23 Now swear to me here before God that you will not deal falsely with me or my children or my descendants. Show to me and the country where you now reside as a foreigner the same kindness I have shown to you.” 24 Abraham said, “I swear it.” 25 Then Abraham complained to Abimelek about a well of water that Abimelek’s servants had seized. 26 But Abimelek said, “I don’t know who has done this. You did not tell me, and I heard about it only today.” 27 So Abraham brought sheep and cattle and gave them to Abimelek, and the two men made a treaty. 28 Abraham set apart seven ewe lambs from the flock, 29 and Abimelek asked Abraham, “What is the meaning of these seven ewe lambs you have set apart by themselves?” 30 He replied, “Accept these seven lambs from my hand as a witness that I dug this well.” 31 So that place was called Beersheba, because the two men swore an oath there. 32 After the treaty had been made at Beersheba, Abimelek and Phicol the commander of his forces returned to the land of the Philistines. 33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the LORD, the Eternal God. 34 And Abraham stayed in the land of the Philistines for a long time.

Ahimelech/Abimelech (a different one) is also the father of Abiathar the priest, (around the time of David) of whom there will be a great deal to say, when we get there.

[GrandizerII]

The Birth of Isaac
Genesis 21:1-7

As God promised Abraham, Sarah gives birth to a son whose name is Isaac. Although he is just as important a figure to the ancient Israelites as Abraham and Jacob, Isaac is the least talked about Patriarch in Genesis. Just to come up with a very weird parallel, Isaac is like Gohan (from Dragon Ball Z): relevant in childhood but no longer as much when all grown.

Nevertheless, Happy Birthday Isaac. Time's up for you, Ishmael.

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Genesis 20
Abraham and Abimelek

A story very similar to an earlier one in Genesis (specifically, Genesis 12:10-20). Almost as if one of them is the source material for the other, or they are both copies of an older story that may or may not have been written down. As Bucky pointed out, there is also a third story later on in Genesis very similar to these two, which involves Isaac and Rebekah instead of Abraham and Sarah. And funnily enough, Abimelek is involved in that story as well.

So a question (to Bucky or anyone else who may be in the know): what's the deal with having Sarah be Abraham's actual sister (as pointed out in Genesis 20)? Is it to show that Abraham wasn't being dishonest or something? Or is it just one of those curious story bits that serve no real point beyond what it's saying?

Of course, I also (once again) question the morality of a god who would do what Yahweh supposedly did to Abimelek and his household. There seems nothing right about punishing someone for a "sin" they had no idea they were committing. And definitely not their whole household.

Note what Abimelek says to God in verses 4 and 5:


This time around, as punishment, God temporarily prevents Abimelek's household from having children (though this may not be as mild a punishment as I'm thinking). And when Abraham prayed to God for Abimelek, Abimelek and his women were able to have children again. Still, as mild a punishment as this one might have been (and this perception of mildness is purely subjective, of course), this passage still remains yet another passage that shows just how morally questionable the Bible God is to the modern civilized mind.

The key to understand this passage is again in the why Abraham gave to the reason he did this.. "11 Abraham replied, “I said to myself, ‘There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.’
Do you assume Abraham was wrong or could not know the minds of these people? Let's say you were a white western reporter walking into an ISIS encampment at the hight of jihad john head removal campaign. Do you think you could accurately access whether or not they were going to imprison you and take you head on a internet broadcast?

Would you feel bad if seal team came in and busted you out even if women and children died? women and children who would cheer when you head was being sawed off by a dull knife..

So why is God the bad guy here?

He did not kill anyone just show this murdering ban of non believing a-holes He was who He said he was which was to ensure total respect and obedience when it came to Abraham peeps.

You guys don't even have a moral issue when your side rights a wrong, rather you seem to want to always side with evil men, and be wronged by God.

My understanding based on the text is Abimelech was sincere and meant no harm. You could argue he was bullshitting, but even so, God could just as easily have warned them beforehand anyway.

I'm not sure about your last sentence, by the way. Even if I was a moral hypocrite, this has no bearing on whether what God said and did (as depicted in the Bible) was morally questionable or not. Keep in mind this is how I, as an atheist, see things. I do not assume God exists, therefore God is the arbiter of morality. From my perspective, God (if he somehow exists) should be morally questioned as much as any other sentient being, and even more so. Might does (or should) not make right.

[Drich]

My understanding based on the text is Abimelech was sincere and meant no harm. You could argue he was bullshitting, but even so, God could just as easily have warned them beforehand anyway.

Again look at what abraham said.. They were a Godless people and no good came from them.
What is harm to a ISIS leader? What is the max they feel they could do to you without doing you what they consider harm? What if what they consider harm was the removal of limbs.. That still leaves a lot of pain and suffering they could do if they did not get their way. Or rather would you rather be under your rival's whim concerning what he considered fair treatment or would you rather have a set or absolute standard where you knew the limits of 'harm?' Now the reason I am pointing this out is if Abimelech wanted to truly do no harm then why wasn't Sarah's word on the matter considered? Clearly she was married to Abraham and clearly as his wife would want no part of some other dude yet Abim married her anyway.. Seem to me Abim at some point was going to want to play alittle "corn hole" with his new wife.





So in your version of 'morality' is it ever ok or rather is it harmful to force a woman to marry you? is it 'harmful' to force a few games of 'corn hole' on her?

To Abim, no forcing a woman to have sex with him is not a harmful thing.

Now consider this. your wife was taken and married to some guy who did force a few games of corn hole onto her.. what would your response be? Now after you burn down his stuff, whether he had ill intentions towards you or your wife, do you think he would allow your actions to go unanswered? what if this was a lawless/godless man? and there were no restrictions in his life?

Despite how he saw himself going into this situation the fact he had no rules concerning or metering back a harmful responce is key here, not only that we also established his version of no harm would put rape on the table.

I'm not sure about your last sentence, by the way. Even if I was a moral hypocrite, this has no bearing on whether what God said and did (as depicted in the Bible) was morally questionable or not. Keep in mind this is how I, as an atheist, see things. I do not assume God exists, therefore God is the arbiter of morality. From my perspective, God (if he somehow exists) should be morally questioned as much as any other sentient being, and even more so. Might does (or should) not make right.

No, what I am saying or asking or just pointing out is that you guys atheists always side with the bad guys. like the people noah let drowned or the egyptians on the exodus or with abim here. despire how the bible frames out these men or people God always seems to be the bad guy despite how the bible frames them.

Again you sided with abim because he said he meant no harm and despite abra's evaluation about be Godless/lawless you assumed your values more closely aligned with a aguy who took a reluctant wife and at some point looked to force her into sex. I meant to point out the fact abra's evaluation of being godless means there are no rules no standards in which abim is obligated to follow, so despite how a man like abim might approach a situation he is not bound by any reason to follow through with any measured restraint.

[Bucky Ball]

They were a Godless people and no good came from them.

Actually if you read what Abimelech did in the story, quite a lot of good came from them.
All ancient cultures had gods, so that statement is patently false.

[Bucky Ball]

Here's a good video that explains some of the origins and common elements from which the Torah of Moses came from.  

[GrandizerII]

From now on, I'm just going to be really brief with my commentaries unless I feel motivated otherwise.

The Exile of Hagar and Ishmael
Genesis 21:8-21

Sarah shows her petty side once again, and Hagar and her son Ishmael are asked to leave Abraham's land to settle elsewhere. Abraham may have not been fond of the idea, but even God tells him to listen to Sarah. While wandering hopelessly in the desert, dying with thirst, Hagar and Ishmael momentarily give up on life and lay down in despair. Ishmael is in tears. An angel comes to their rescue and miraculously provides them with water. Ishmael is blessed, and has multitudes of offspring, eventually becoming a great nation.

There should be a movie about Hagar herself, by the way (if it hasn't been done yet). This woman went through a lot of shit according to the stories, and her story would make for a really good one on screen (if done right).

[Brian37]

Here's a good video that explains some of the origins and common elements from which the Torah of Moses came from.  

I hate where this narrator says, "While the bible is not mythology, it contains mythology".

UM NO, IT IS MYTHOLOGY.

How the hell can you spend this much time quoting the prior influences and not come to the conclusion that newer religions are merely products of competition of prior and surrounding mythologies?

How any sane person can listen to this an not equate this crap to Star Wars or Harry Potter is beyond me.

I also hate how he tries to make the claim that the newer religion was different because it was the first to be concerned with humans. Which is ironic considering that the first 4 commandments are all about kissing his ass.

[GrandizerII]

Abraham and Abimelek II
Genesis 21:22-34

A treaty is formed between Abraham and Abimelek (the king from Genesis 20). Abraham basically promises Abimelek he will no longer bullshit him. Also, some complaint regarding a well that is then settled ... because Abimelek really did not want any more trouble with Abraham and his god. Little does poor Abimelek know that Isaac, Abraham's own flesh and blood, will later on cause him further problems anyway.

[Drich]

Here's a good video that explains some of the origins and common elements from which the Torah of Moses came from.  

You know this kinda supports what is said in the bible.Not only that there is nothing inthe bible that God was only the God of the jews. Abraham's people all worshiped God before he was singled out and made the father of a new religion.. This would indicate everyone in the region would also have likly worship a FORM or variant of abraham's God which according to this video is exactly what happened.

Everyone in this region worship a form of God, but abraham was singled out and was given specifics the other where not privy too or had long since forgotten or even changed over time. so in an effort to reestablish a live connection with his people God gave one man the charge to start what ultimatly Jesus finished. Meaning a direct link between God and potentially every man who seek God out.

---

Here's a good video that explains some of the origins and common elements from which the Torah of Moses came from.  

I hate where this narrator says, "While the bible is not mythology, it contains mythology".

UM NO, IT IS MYTHOLOGY.

How the hell can you spend this much time quoting the prior influences and not come to the conclusion that newer religions are merely products of competition of prior and surrounding mythologies?

How any sane person can listen to this an not equate this crap to Star Wars or Harry Potter is beyond me.

I also hate how he tries to make the claim that the newer religion was different because it was the first to be concerned with humans. Which is ironic considering that the first 4 commandments are all about kissing his ass.

or the parts cut from the orginal "El" religion are the mythos of God and what was kept was the truth.

This is what we are all called to do when building out houses on the sand or rock. when we build our faith on mythos God sends wind and rain to test out beliefs, and when they fail we know that part that failed is not apart of the truth of who God is.

[Bucky Ball]

You know this kinda supports what is said in the bible.Not only that there is nothing inthe bible that God was only the God of the jews. Abraham's people all worshiped God before he was singled out and made the father of a new religion.. This would indicate everyone in the region would also have likly worship a FORM or variant of abraham's God which according to this video is exactly what happened.

No. It does not AT ALL.
The texts are very definite that the other gods were false gods.
Now all you have to do is SUPPORT with scholarly EVIDENCE your *claims* about which gods the others worshipped and when that was going on.  
Are you trying to tell us that the god Baal "Ba'el" (the bull god in the Bible, whom the Jews were told again and again to STOP worshiping was a variant of Yahweh ? LOL.

Everyone in this region worship a form of God, but abraham was singled out and was given specifics the other where not privy too or had long since forgotten or even changed over time. so in an effort to reestablish a live connection with his people God gave one man the charge to start what ultimatly Jesus finished. Meaning a direct link between God and potentially every man who seek God out.

Prove it.
And you know this by your magic Abraham detector ring ?
Obviously you made that up. Jews for FAR LONGER than Christians have no notional at all about Jesus connecting with anything.
Anyway, again all assertions and no evidence.
All hat no cattle.