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Would They Die for a Lie?
#31
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 6, 2018 at 8:26 pm)unfogged Wrote:
(December 6, 2018 at 5:47 pm)Wololo Wrote: Amongst the many things that drive religion are money, power, sex, hate and a total devotion to the pope.

It might even be almost fanatical

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#32
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
Getting back to the OP, no mainstream scholar believes that the early disciples of Jesus were martyred due to their faith; persecution of Christians within the Empire was episodic and not widespread. The Romans, in fact, had a fair amount of tolerance for religious beliefs but did demand allegiance to the Empire.
Reply
#33
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 9, 2018 at 10:19 am)Jehanne Wrote: Getting back to the OP, no mainstream scholar believes that the early disciples of Jesus were martyred due to their faith; persecution of Christians within the Empire was episodic and not widespread.  The Romans, in fact, had a fair amount of tolerance for religious beliefs but did demand allegiance to the Empire.

that's untrue. I have posted a historicaly accepted letter from pliny the younger to emperor Tragen of rome asking what to do with the 1st century christians he was capturing. he was at a loss as to the total volume of people he was finding and did not know what to do with them as some did not deny christ (to whom he executed) and many other who did when confronted to which he let go.. He asked the emperor for direction. the emperor says: if they deny the faith or they are not currently practicing and swear to the roman gods let them go. and again only kill active members who will not recant the faith!

how is a decree from the emperor of rome not wide spread or episodic?

Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians
Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111-113 CE.


The actual letter:

Pliny the Younger, Letters 111 to 113AD.

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.
Reply
#34
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 10, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote:
(December 9, 2018 at 10:19 am)Jehanne Wrote: Getting back to the OP, no mainstream scholar believes that the early disciples of Jesus were martyred due to their faith; persecution of Christians within the Empire was episodic and not widespread.  The Romans, in fact, had a fair amount of tolerance for religious beliefs but did demand allegiance to the Empire.

that's untrue. I have posted a historicaly accepted letter from pliny the younger to emperor Tragen of rome asking what to do with the 1st century christians he was capturing. he was at a loss as to the total volume of people he was finding and did not know what to do with them as some did not deny christ (to whom he executed) and many other who did when confronted to which he let go.. He asked the emperor for direction. the emperor says: if they deny the faith or they are not currently practicing and swear to the roman gods let them go. and again only kill active members who will not recant the faith!

how is a decree from the emperor of rome not wide spread or episodic?

Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians
Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111-113 CE.


The actual letter:

Pliny the Younger, Letters 111 to 113AD.

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.
Reply
#35
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
I think everyone should apologize for telling lies. Because for this little lie there might happen a major damage to others. But we don't think about it anymore. We just take care of our interest not others.
Reply
#36
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 10, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote:
(December 9, 2018 at 10:19 am)Jehanne Wrote: Getting back to the OP, no mainstream scholar believes that the early disciples of Jesus were martyred due to their faith; persecution of Christians within the Empire was episodic and not widespread.  The Romans, in fact, had a fair amount of tolerance for religious beliefs but did demand allegiance to the Empire.

that's untrue. I have posted a historicaly accepted letter from pliny the younger to emperor Tragen of rome asking what to do with the 1st century christians he was capturing. he was at a loss as to the total volume of people he was finding and did not know what to do with them as some did not deny christ (to whom he executed) and many other who did when confronted to which he let go.. He asked the emperor for direction. the emperor says: if they deny the faith or they are not currently practicing and swear to the roman gods let them go. and again only kill active members who will not recant the faith!

The point of the OP is that people die for crazy beliefs all the time and neither religious fanaticism nor persecution prove anything.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#37
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 10, 2018 at 11:40 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(December 10, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: that's untrue. I have posted a historicaly accepted letter from pliny the younger to emperor Tragen of rome asking what to do with the 1st century christians he was capturing. he was at a loss as to the total volume of people he was finding and did not know what to do with them as some did not deny christ (to whom he executed) and many other who did when confronted to which he let go.. He asked the emperor for direction. the emperor says: if they deny the faith or they are not currently practicing and swear to the roman gods let them go. and again only kill active members who will not recant the faith!

how is a decree from the emperor of rome not wide spread or episodic?

Pliny the Younger and Trajan on the Christians
Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111-113 CE.


The actual letter:

Pliny the Younger, Letters 111 to 113AD.

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny
You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age.

So there is a standing order to torture and Kill confirmed/known Christians. the governor Just can seek out random people and shake them down to see if they are believers or if they know anyone..

This is hardly freedom of religion. So basically a neighbor complains about a neighbor hold church in his house every sunday morning and it is ok for the government to come in and arrest torture and interrogate these people (church goers) then have them killed according to this letter, but this is not an example of persecution of the 1st and 2nd century church?!?!?

please explain.

(December 11, 2018 at 10:40 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(December 10, 2018 at 12:51 pm)Drich Wrote: that's untrue. I have posted a historicaly accepted letter from pliny the younger to emperor Tragen of rome asking what to do with the 1st century christians he was capturing. he was at a loss as to the total volume of people he was finding and did not know what to do with them as some did not deny christ (to whom he executed) and many other who did when confronted to which he let go.. He asked the emperor for direction. the emperor says: if they deny the faith or they are not currently practicing and swear to the roman gods let them go. and again only kill active members who will not recant the faith!

The point of the OP is that people die for crazy beliefs all the time and neither religious fanaticism nor persecution prove anything.

So you concede? are you saying were wrong in calling me a liar?

because the highlighted portio you have quoted is not our topic of conversation. You claim luke referenced both herod the great in luke 1 and i showed you that the reference material proves luke one references not herod the great but his son.

Can you admit you were wrong? can you admit you wrongfully called me a liar who's reference material did not support my conclusions? Or are you a petty littl pos who will never admit a christian is right about anything? that even if you are wrong you still feel as if you are a better person?

I am callout your integrity here sport what say you? will you eat your humble pie and fall on the side of intellectual honesty or will you pretend you are still right and try and troll you way out of this?!?!
Reply
#38
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 11, 2018 at 10:53 am)Drich Wrote: So you concede? are you saying were wrong in calling me a liar?

I never called you a liar. I called you a moron. 



Quote:You claim luke referenced both herod the great in luke 1 and...


I showed you textural evidence.
...and historical evidence.
...and the scholarly consensus that agrees with me. 


Quote:i showed you that the reference material proves luke one references not herod the great but his son.


No, your "bluebook" folks, whoever they are, never said that in any page you linked to. 



Quote:Can you admit you were wrong? can you admit you wrongfully called me a liar who's reference material did not support my conclusions? Or are you a petty littl pos who will never admit a christian is right about anything? that even if you are wrong you still feel as if you are a better person?

The evidence shows I'm not wrong. Scholarly consensus agrees. 

Quote:I am callout your integrity here sport what say you? will you eat your humble pie and fall on the side of intellectual honesty or will you pretend you are still right and try and troll you way out of this?!?!

You can call out whatever you like. I've shown both evidence and scholarly consensus agrees with me.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply
#39
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 11, 2018 at 12:33 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(December 11, 2018 at 10:53 am)Drich Wrote: So you concede? are you saying were wrong in calling me a liar?

I never called you a liar. I called you a moron. 
actually woloo made the accusation you just provided an instance where you thought I was lying so by accusation and evidentiary support you in turn also called me a liar. one makes the accusation you provide the evidence which makes you an accuser.

Quote:You claim luke referenced both herod the great in luke 1 and...

Quote:I showed you textural evidence.
...and historical evidence.
...and the scholarly consensus that agrees with me. 
You have yet to show ANYTHING except willful baligerance toward the reference material I have provided.

Quote:i showed you that the reference material proves luke one references not herod the great but his son.

Quote:No, your "bluebook" folks, whoever they are, never said that in any page you linked to. 
it absolutely does. when you use the page correctly. The word herod is the word that appears in the text. the sir names antipas, the great, the tetrarch are never mentioned. however they are accounted for because in the english translation the distinction is made. meaning in the greek the word herod is only used in the original manuscripts, while antipas is used/referenced 27 times when the single word herod is translated to english The great is referenced 9 times in the english while only the word herod is found in the greek.
So when you click on antipas nothing shows up, but when you click on herod antipas luke 1 as well as luke 9 along with 25 other mentions of antipas shows up.

Quote:Can you admit you were wrong? can you admit you wrongfully called me a liar who's reference material did not support my conclusions? Or are you a petty littl pos who will never admit a christian is right about anything? that even if you are wrong you still feel as if you are a better person?
Quote:The evidence shows I'm not wrong. Scholarly consensus agrees. r
reference material please.

Quote:I am callout your integrity here sport what say you? will you eat your humble pie and fall on the side of intellectual honesty or will you pretend you are still right and try and troll you way out of this?!?!
Quote:You can call out whatever you like. I've shown both evidence and scholarly consensus agrees with me.
that is a lie I would like for you to show me this oxford article. I like for you to show me something beside your own ineptitude and general ignorance of translation.
Reply
#40
RE: Would They Die for a Lie?
(December 11, 2018 at 1:20 pm)Drich Wrote: ...

I've already posted my reply in the other thread. I'm not going to spoon-feed you a second time. 

Suffice to say, I have:
  • Textural evidence
  • Historical evidence
  • Scholarly consensus 
While you have:
  • Your opinion. 
You lose, sir. Good day, sir.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Reply



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