Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?

[Jehanne]

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To give a brief summary, the earliest traditions of Jesus do not allude to a bodily resurrection; the latter traditions are embellishments.

This is not correct.

The earliest accounts are from Paul, writing in the 50s, and with his use of anastasis and egeiro he makes it clear beyond argument that the resurrection under discussion is physical. These words do not get used of non-physical situations.

The next set of writings are the Gospels. Leaving Mark as a question Mark, the others all make a physical resurrection clear. There are the direct accounts, and the indirect allusions such as Matthew 28, the guards passage of the OP, which only make sense if the debate is over a solid body.

Then Acts. However one views Peter's speech, the use of Psalm 16 can only work in a mindset that says the resurrection was a bodily event in which Jesus body received new, physical life.

And so on. It's a consistent, clear message.

At this point 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 gets trotted out as a counterargument, but even there, Paul's soma psychikon/soma pneumatikon contrast would point to the resurrection body as the physical one!

Indeed, someone who had been killed, and subsequently appears as a non-corporeal entity is simply underlining the point that they're still highly dead. The whole thing the Xians were saying is that Jesus was alive.

Have a look at this link:

Did Paul believe in a spiritual resurrection?

Some posters support your POV, while others do not.  Still, it gives a nice synopsis of the different POVs.  As I allude to above, I think that Paul, in those letters that are authentic to him, was speaking of phantom bodies, a spiritual resurrection as opposed to a physical one.  In particular, Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 alludes to Jesus' burial, but stops after that.  Likely, the story of the "empty tomb" had not yet been invented yet, or at least was still in its proto-stages of development.  If Paul had known about such an "event," he would have mentioned it.

[Fake Messiah]

The authorities came up with an ingenious solution that kept everybody happy. It was the lack of a body and how the Xians were overheating that necessitated a response.

Overheating? You don't say how was this making everybody happy, and now what? I have to play the guessing game? Are you also going that road how Jews are corrupt businessmen who just think about the profit and how to make money, while good Christians just want to serve god to their good material free priests

If Jews didn't believe resurrection and were sure it was fake then why not let people talk about it and inspect it thoroughly to convince themselves it was false? But no matter how much you and Drich tiptoe around it that it all comes down that Jews are cons because they didn't and still don't want to admit that Jesus is messiah and that his life and resurrection were foretold in the OT (as Christians claim) and are still spreading those lies and they should supposedly know better because they follow Yahweh and should stick to his teachings. Therefore Jews love money more than god.

[The Grand Nudger]

Aviezer Tucker on the argument for historicity-

 "The problem with the Synoptic Gospels as evidence for a historical Jesus from a Bayesian perspective is that the evidence that coheres does not seem to be independent, whereas the evidence that is independent does not seem to cohere."

There's an awfully simple explanation for that..one that does cohere with every independent explanation for the development of movements of any kind.

[Vicki Q]

Fredd Bear- I'd be interested to explore your ideas on the Messiah, when I'm done on physicailty

[Jehanne]

Aviezer Tucker on the argument for historicity-

 "The problem with the Synoptic Gospels as evidence for a historical Jesus from a Bayesian perspective is that the evidence that coheres does not seem to be independent, whereas the evidence that is independent does not seem to cohere."

There's an awfully simple explanation for that..one that does cohere with every independent explanation for the development of movements of any kind.

Christian apologists love to embrace their confirmation biases, while at the same time also embracing their congruence biases.

[Vicki Q]

Have a look at this link:

Did Paul believe in a spiritual resurrection?

Some posters support your POV, while others do not.  Still, it gives a nice synopsis of the different POVs.  As I allude to above, I think that Paul, in those letters that are authentic to him, was speaking of phantom bodies, a spiritual resurrection as opposed to a physical one.  In particular, Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 alludes to Jesus' burial, but stops after that.  Likely, the story of the "empty tomb" had not yet been invented yet, or at least was still in its proto-stages of development.  If Paul had known about such an "event," he would have mentioned it.

Yes, this is the soma pneumatikon issue I mentioned above. It follows predictable lines- non-physicalists starting with the translations into English with the physicalists replying by explaining what the Greek actually means, which the normal English translations don't capture at all well in their need to be concise. The person who wrote an academic paper on it confirms the physicalist POV to be correct.

I assume that is the 'phantom body' thing you mention.

The other issues I raise weren't discussed on the thread.

Paul has no good reason to mention the empty tomb. He's summarising the teaching he gave them when present previously in a pastoral letter, to put right a misunderstanding about the resurrection body. Given that the empty tomb is a necessary condition for a physical resurrection, both him and the Corinthians would have taken it as read.

[Won2blv]

They didn't lie. They only proved how faithless they were all along. They were incredulous at the very thought that this man could have been the Messiah. The only explanation they thought up was that the body was stolen. Proving to be faithless in the sight of God.

Then again, who knows, maybe it was stolen and they didn't lie at all.

[fredd bear]

Fredd Bear- I'd be interested to explore your ideas on the Messiah, when I'm done on physicailty

 I'm afraid they're not  original.

Some gleaned  from a rabbi on an online Yeshiva. I recommend the experience. Caveat; they're a bit touchy , so it's necessary to be respectful and not argue. At the time I was doing a lot of reading on the Shoah .

As for 'my' views on the Mashiach, (Messiah)  they are simply a traditional jewish view.

You might find the link below interesting: The page title is "Judaism 101"

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

If you don't feel like it now, fell free to PM at any time.

[Drich]

There was no first century church, and proto-christianity took off with gentiles, not jews.

sorry sport..
The history of early Christianity covers the period from the origins of Christianity to the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

The earliest followers of Jesus comprised an apocalyptic, Second Temple Jewish sect, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity. Early Christianity gradually grew apartfrom Judaism during the first two centuries of the Christian Era; it established itself as a predominantly gentile religion in the Roman Empire. Although Paul's influence on Christian thinking is said to be more significant than that of any other New Testament author,[1] the relationship of Paul and Judaism remains a matter of dispute.[clarification needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity

Not only this, but with in the bible itself, there is recorded a dispute between paul and peter concerning how to obtain salvation. Paul taught believe and be baptized. Peter thought one had to convert to Judaism first because the founding members of the church where ALL JEWS! (Who else would even know or care about Christ when all of this first started?) outside of the stray roman living near the temple who maybe saw what Jesus did himself, everyone else in that region would have been a jew.

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This is not correct.

The earliest accounts are from Paul, writing in the 50s, and with his use of anastasis and egeiro he makes it clear beyond argument that the resurrection under discussion is physical. These words do not get used of non-physical situations.

The next set of writings are the Gospels. Leaving Mark as a question Mark, the others all make a physical resurrection clear. There are the direct accounts, and the indirect allusions such as Matthew 28, the guards passage of the OP, which only make sense if the debate is over a solid body.

Then Acts. However one views Peter's speech, the use of Psalm 16 can only work in a mindset that says the resurrection was a bodily event in which Jesus body received new, physical life.

And so on. It's a consistent, clear message.

At this point 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 gets trotted out as a counterargument, but even there, Paul's soma psychikon/soma pneumatikon contrast would point to the resurrection body as the physical one!

Indeed, someone who had been killed, and subsequently appears as a non-corporeal entity is simply underlining the point that they're still highly dead. The whole thing the Xians were saying is that Jesus was alive.

Have a look at this link:

Did Paul believe in a spiritual resurrection?

Some posters support your POV, while others do not.  Still, it gives a nice synopsis of the different POVs.  As I allude to above, I think that Paul, in those letters that are authentic to him, was speaking of phantom bodies, a spiritual resurrection as opposed to a physical one.  In particular, Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 alludes to Jesus' burial, but stops after that.  Likely, the story of the "empty tomb" had not yet been invented yet, or at least was still in its proto-stages of development.  If Paul had known about such an "event," he would have mentioned it.

this is why I call you guys stupid... You take a reddit post as gospel truth without even checking!!!

Here is what 1 cor 15 actually says:
We Will Be Raised From Death
12 We tell everyone that Christ was raised from death. So why do some of you say that people will not be raised from death? 13 If no one will ever be raised from death, then Christ has never been raised. 14 And if Christ has never been raised, then the message we tell is worth nothing. And your faith is worth nothing. 15 And we will also be guilty of lying about God, because we have told people about him, saying that he raised Christ from death. And if no one is raised from death, then God never raised Christ from death. 16 If those who have died are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised from death, then your faith is for nothing; you are still guilty of your sins. 18 And those in Christ who have already died are lost. 19 If our hope in Christ is only for this life here on earth, then people should feel more sorry for us than for anyone else.
20 But Christ really has been raised from death—the first one of all those who will be raised. 21 Death comes to people because of what one man did. But now there is resurrection from death because of another man.22 I mean that in Adam all of us die. And in the same way, in Christ all of us will be made alive again. 23 But everyone will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was first to be raised. Then, when Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life. 24 Then the end will come. Christ will destroy all rulers, authorities, and powers. Then he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
25 Christ must rule until God puts all enemies under his control.[a] 26 The last enemy to be destroyed will be death. 27 As the Scriptures say, “God put everything under his control.”[b] When it says that “everything” is put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself. God is the one putting everything under Christ’s control. 28 After everything has been put under Christ, then the Son himself will be put under God. God is the one who put everything under Christ. And Christ will be put under God so that God will be the complete ruler over everything.
29 If no one will ever be raised from death, then what will the people do who are baptized for those who have died? If the dead are never raised, then why are people baptized for them?
30 And what about us? Why do we put ourselves in danger every hour?31 I face death every day. That is true, brothers and sisters, just as it is true that I am proud of what you are because of Christ Jesus our Lord.32 I fought wild animals in Ephesus. If I did that only for human reasons, then I have gained nothing. If we are not raised from death, “Let us eat and drink, because tomorrow we die.”[c]
33 Don’t be fooled: “Bad friends will ruin good habits.” 34 Come back to your right way of thinking and stop sinning. Some of you don’t know God. I say this to shame you.
What Kind of Body Will We Have?
35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have?” 36 These are stupid questions. When you plant something, it must die in the ground before it can live and grow. 37 And when you plant something, what you plant does not have the same “body” that it will have later. What you plant is only a seed, maybe wheat or something else. 38 But God gives it the body that he has planned for it, and he gives each kind of seed its own body. 39 All things made of flesh are not the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds have another, and fish have yet another kind. 40 Also there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the beauty of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the beauty of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of beauty, the moon has another kind, and the stars have another. And each star is different in its beauty.
42 It will be the same when those who have died are raised to life. The body that is “planted” in the grave will ruin and decay, but it will be raised to a life that cannot be destroyed. 43 When the body is “planted,” it is without honor. But when it is raised, it will be great and glorious. When the body is “planted,” it is weak. But when it is raised, it will be full of power. 44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body.
There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. 45 As the Scriptures say, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.[d]”[e] But the last Adam[f] is a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual man did not come first. It was the physical man that came first; then came the spiritual.47 The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man came from heaven. 48 All people belong to the earth. They are like that first man of earth. But those who belong to heaven are like that man of heaven. 49 We were made like that man of earth, so we will also be made like that man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers and sisters: Our bodies of flesh and blood cannot have a part in God’s kingdom. Something that will ruin cannot have a part in something that never ruins. 51 But listen, I tell you this secret: We will not all die, but we will all be changed. 52 It will only take the time of a second. We will be changed as quickly as an eye blinks. This will happen when the last trumpet blows. The trumpet will blow and those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we will all be changed. 53 This body that ruins must clothe itself with something that will never ruin. And this body that dies must clothe itself with something that will never die. 54 So this body that ruins will clothe itself with that which never ruins. And this body that dies will clothe itself with that which never dies. When this happens, the Scriptures will be made true:
“Death is swallowed in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
    Where is your power to hurt?”
56 Death’s power to hurt is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But we thank God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, stand strong. Don’t let anything change you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord. You know that your work in the Lord is never wasted.

So not only does paul believe in the resurrection he even tells us what kind of bodies we will be resurrected into!!! How then can Paul not believe in the resurrection if he is telling people how good they will look and feel in their newly resurrected bodies?!?!?

Wicked people lie all the time and intentionally mis repersent the bible all the time!!! ALWAYS check for yourself.

(95% of the crap you all believe about the bible is wrong, 1/2 truth, or an an amalgamation or compilation of several bible scraps smooched together to make up something new. Or in this case out right lie by omission/selective editing  paired with an narrative which gives an official look.)

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Aviezer Tucker on the argument for historicity-


There's an awfully simple explanation for that..one that does cohere with every independent explanation for the development of movements of any kind.

Christian apologists love to embrace their confirmation biases, while at the same time also embracing their congruence biases.

say the person who quoted a post that was literally selectively edited from the bible to frame a verse in a completely different light than what Paul intended!!!

Hypocrite!

[Fake Messiah]

They didn't lie. They only proved how faithless they were all along. They were incredulous at the very thought that this man could have been the Messiah. The only explanation they thought up was that the body was stolen. Proving to be faithless in the sight of God.

Still, if they didn't believe it why pay people to say your version of truth? Were they afraid that people would laugh to Roman soldiers if they walked around saying that story of resurrected Jesus so they wanted to save them from themselves? Or when they said this: "If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble."

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this is why I call you guys stupid... You take a reddit post as gospel truth without even checking!!!

Here is what 1 cor 15 actually says:

Yeah, let's hear what 1 Cor. 15 has to say: "5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."

I mean from the start you can see that Paul is lying because there were only eleven, Judas having died.

(95% of the crap you all believe about the bible is wrong, 1/2 truth, or an anamalgamation or compilation of several bible scraps smooched together to make up something new.

Hypocrite!!