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Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
#31
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: Matthew never claims the Jewish authorities knew/believed Jesus had been resurrected. They were proceeding with a strategy to kill off reports that something odd had happened.

Really? They were paying off people with large sums of money not to make up odd stories? Gee, it must have been a really easy way to make money 2000 years ago: you just walk to Jewish elders and say: "hey, I just saw a pink dragon vomiting candy and singing 'Oh! Susanna'" and they would immediately give me large sums of money to keep quiet.
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#32
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 18, 2019 at 10:39 pm)Jehanne Wrote: To give a brief summary, the earliest traditions of Jesus do not allude to a bodily resurrection; the latter traditions are embellishments.

 Sounds about right.  I only recently learned that the term "Christian" only came into mainstream use after it was adopted by the emperor Theodosius, in the fourth century.. 

Christians  started squabbling amongst themselves and scrabbling for power almost from the very start, and have never completely stopped. Harder these days because they are no longer allowed to burn 'heretics' alive. 
.
 A bit OT: A fascinating study in itself is the morphing of  Mayan/Aztec/Inca gods into  the Marian cult (for goddesses)  and  a range of Christian saints (gods) As I said, the Church has always been flexible, as long as it's been the church doing the flexing.   Cool
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#33
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 16, 2019 at 10:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: As we all probably know the book of "Matthew" ends that the Jews to "this very day" are spreading a lie that Jesus did not resurrect but that apostles stole the body:

Quote:When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.

I mean they seem very determined that they're even ready to pay large sums of money to keep the "lie" afloat.

Why don't Jews want people to be saved and happy?

Got to remember two things. alot of jews made up the first century church, these where common every day people. The only people/jew who had authority to lie where those in power. Then ask your question with this understanding. why would someone lie about someone who threatens their whole way of life and livelihood?
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#34
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
There was no first century church, and proto-christianity took off with gentiles, not jews.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#35
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 19, 2019 at 9:49 am)Drich Wrote: Then ask your question with this understanding. why would someone lie about someone who threatens their whole way of life and livelihood?

I don't see how Jesus's resurrection threatened chief priests. If they knew what happened and if they could recognize Jesus's life and resurrection to be described in the OT as son of Yahweh (as Christians claim) then they could have simply been chief priests of the "new" Judaism. They would have been very qualified since they were versed in the religious scriptures.
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#36
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 19, 2019 at 2:07 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(March 19, 2019 at 9:49 am)Drich Wrote: Then ask your question with this understanding. why would someone lie about someone who threatens their whole way of life and livelihood?

I don't see how Jesus's resurrection threatened chief priests. If they knew what happened and if they could recognize Jesus's life and resurrection to be described in the OT as son of Yahweh (as Christians claim) then they could have simply been chief priests of the "new" Judaism. They would have been very qualified since they were versed in the religious scriptures.

Jesus preached a very different message than what the priest taught.

Jesus taught be baptised and confess your sins and God will forgive you and allow you into heaven.

The jews taught me moral live by these 600+ laws if you mess up come to the temple buy a sacrificial animal (depending on how much you sin or how long it has been/these animals where 10xs the amount regular animals where) plus you could not buy with your money but temple money only which had an exchange rate of 10:1 (which is why christ turned over the money changers tables and called them theives)/ The people where trying to attone for their sins and where being raped by the temple priests.

So again the jews where making money and where in a very lucrative business in selling forgiveness, while Jesus says repent and be baptized (which cost nothing)  not only that you have all the messages Jesus taught which where counter what the pharisees thought.. they wanted Jeus to stone a woman and he said who has not sin pick up the first stone. they wanted jesus to deny the government tax, and jesus said give unto ceasar what is ceasars and unto God what belongs to god.

So if Jesus resurrected He is who he says he is... (god) which has the authority to change the religious paradigm. meaning you do not have to pay to be forgiven, not only that the Jews where offered a long life while Christianity opens the term long to infinite. So now not only do yu get forgiven for free and don't need priests to come between you and God you have the opportunity to live forever with Him.

This ends the free ride for the priests/all high ranking jews.

Think commodus (the emperor's son in gladiator) He was told his way of life was at an end and he would not rule the world (which is what the jewish leadership did under rome.) So did commodus follow his father's wishes or did he do everything he could to stay in power?

They did not want to be something new they liked the way things where and except a few like nicodemus, and Saul the pharisees and saducees fought to the death in 70ad and the destruction of the temple to maintain their power and way of life.
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#37
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
Do you mean the actual emperor commodus, or the fictional emperor in yet another fable that you dearly love, when you ask the above?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#38
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 19, 2019 at 2:40 pm)Drich Wrote: So again the jews where making money and where in a very lucrative business in selling forgiveness, while Jesus says repent and be baptized (which cost nothing)

Oh yes, let's not forget how much Jews love money. Rolleyes But let's not kid ourselves that Christianity is not a lucrative business.
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#39
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
"Why don't Jews want people to be saved and happy?"

Was that a serious question? If so, I think I can come up with a few reasons.

Just one reason to start: What the Jews saw as idolatry. ; That the sect called their leader the son of god and worshipped him. They called him 'christ', from the Greek 'Christos', which means 'anointed'. This was monstrous blasphemy to the Jews. As far as I know, they still haven't changed their minds, and are still waiting for the Messiah.

A check of Jewish tradition shows that Jesus didn't come close to meeting prophesy for the Messiah.
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#40
RE: Why did the Jews lie about Jesus?
(March 19, 2019 at 1:30 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(March 18, 2019 at 3:34 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: Matthew never claims the Jewish authorities knew/believed Jesus had been resurrected. They were proceeding with a strategy to kill off reports that something odd had happened.

Really? They were paying off people with large sums of money not to make up odd stories? Gee, it must have been a really easy way to make money 2000 years ago: you just walk to Jewish elders and say: "hey, I just saw a pink dragon vomiting candy and singing 'Oh! Susanna'" and they would immediately give me large sums of money to keep quiet.
No, there was a vanished body, a load of stories doing the rounds, and some Roman soldiers with a very strange account of why. The authorities came up with an ingenious solution that kept everybody happy. It was the lack of a body and how the Xians were overheating that necessitated a response.

(March 18, 2019 at 10:39 pm)Jehanne Wrote: To give a brief summary, the earliest traditions of Jesus do not allude to a bodily resurrection; the latter traditions are embellishments.

This is not correct.

The earliest accounts are from Paul, writing in the 50s, and with his use of anastasis and egeiro he makes it clear beyond argument that the resurrection under discussion is physical. These words do not get used of non-physical situations.

The next set of writings are the Gospels. Leaving Mark as a question Mark, the others all make a physical resurrection clear. There are the direct accounts, and the indirect allusions such as Matthew 28, the guards passage of the OP, which only make sense if the debate is over a solid body.

Then Acts. However one views Peter's speech, the use of Psalm 16 can only work in a mindset that says the resurrection was a bodily event in which Jesus body received new, physical life.

And so on. It's a consistent, clear message.

At this point 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 gets trotted out as a counterargument, but even there, Paul's soma psychikon/soma pneumatikon contrast would point to the resurrection body as the physical one!

Indeed, someone who had been killed, and subsequently appears as a non-corporeal entity is simply underlining the point that they're still highly dead. The whole thing the Xians were saying is that Jesus was alive.
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