Bible Study: The God who Lies and Deceives

[Brian37]

god told me that I would get paid on Tuesday if I gave it a hamburger, I have yet to collect.

[Rhondazvous]

Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".

The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".

But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?"  What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?

He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.

Catch 22.

If he can't lie then he'd not all powerful. Which means that he lied about being all powerful

[vulcanlogician]

So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.

...

So the question remains Can God lie? according to the passage in hebrews he will not lie under oath. can he lie not under oath? as you pointed out in the OT he indeed can if it suits him.

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.
...

I think Drich probably has the Bible right here. It's not Drich's fault that's that's what it says. It's not God's fault either.

I think the problem is Christianity's PR department. They put out all this misinformation leading people to think that the Christian God is truthful by his very nature.

No, silly. That's only for oaths. LOL that your stupid ass fell for that schtick. There's a sucker born every minute, right? Read the fine print! There are caveats...

It's not just Yahweh's supposed truthfulness that gets the lawyer treatment from Christianity's PR department either. Do you think Christians really practice "Love your enemies." Well sure, in a way. But there are plenty of caveats there, too. The point is, if a Christian wants to hate their enemy, it isn't too hard for them to lawyer up a reason to make that hatred a-okay with God. Same goes with judgmentalism, vengeance, and, bearing false witness. To Christians, the commandments against these behaviors are more a set of advertising slogans than principles they genuinely live by. Again, read the fine print. There are caveats...

[Brian37]

Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".

The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".

But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?"  What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?

He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.

Catch 22.

If he can't lie then he'd not all powerful. Which means that he lied about being all powerful

Wait, you've done time as White House staff? Sara, is that you?

---

So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.

...

So the question remains Can God lie? according to the passage in hebrews he will not lie under oath. can he lie not under oath? as you pointed out in the OT he indeed can if it suits him.

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.
...

I think Drich probably has the Bible right here. It's not Drich's fault that's that's what it says. It's not God's fault either.

I think the problem is Christianity's PR department. They put out all this misinformation leading people to think that the Christian God is truthful by his very nature.

No, silly. That's only for oaths. LOL that your stupid ass fell for that schtick. There's a sucker born every minute, right? Read the fine print! There are caveats...

It's not just Yahweh's supposed truthfulness that gets the lawyer treatment from Christianity's PR department either. Do you think Christians really practice "Love your enemies." Well sure, in a way. But there are plenty of caveats there, too. The point is, if a Christian wants to hate their enemy, it isn't too hard for them to lawyer up a reason to make that hatred a-okay with God. Same goes with judgmentalism, vengeance, and, bearing false witness. To Christians, the commandments against these behaviors are more a set of advertising slogans than principles they genuinely live by. Again, read the fine print. There are caveats...

How is it not God's fault? He made everything, started everything. That is the slick part of every religion worldwide. It works until it doesn't and the outsider simply doesn't understand. 

If any believer wants a half assed "still not true" but slightly better argument would be the Jefferson approach, "God started everything, but after it started left us alone".... But even with him, even with Jefferson's trying to strip the bible of magic, not even that attempt, as well intended as it was to Jefferson, negated, that Jesus/God/himself still attempts to interfere with human affairs, from the first page to the last page.

The term is "Cherry picking".

[Anomalocaris]

I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me. 

Boru

I had to cut off god’s Pinocchio nose.

[Drich]

Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".

The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".

But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?"  What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?

He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.

Did you stop reading once you ran out of highlighted words?

"Your argument is mine 'smart guy.' God can indeed lie if he wants... IF you where to read my post I go into detail stating that as the alpha and omega gives him the ability to lie.

If you are hung up with the highlighted portion about God is not able to lie under oath, know it is simply the hebrew writer observation that God has NEVER lied under oath. As verse 17 points out when he says something he is 100% intended to full fill he adds an oath to it.

Meaning when God is seen adding an oath to his already truful word he can not lie because it is his will to carry out what ever he said and the oath is the verification that what he said is indeed what will hapen per his want/will.

It is a bit short sighted to assume an Alpha and Omega God 'can't' for any other reason than it is not his will to limit himself.

Again point back to the stupid rock paradox "Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it?" The answer is Yes if God want to meaning if God wants to limit himself in physical strength his ability to create he could indeed create a rock so big he coud not lift it. like wise if he did not want to limit his physical strength but limit his ability to create the the answer would be the opposite. meaning an all powerful God has the ability to limit himself where ever the "F" he wants including NOT LYING UNDER OATH!

---

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.

....

Can God create a rock so big he can not lift it? yes if he wants to no if he does not.
Can God lie cheat and steal? yes if he wants to and no if he does not.
Can God set a standard for us to follow and he himself not be bound by the same standard? Again yes if he wants to and no if he does not. in the end we know he did.

It's like hearing a politician who forgot that the microphone is still on.

...meaning you get the truth, and not just the crap the church wants to spew from the pulpits on sunday... isn't that the point of this forum?

---

I can honestly state that never, not ONCE, has God lied to me. 

Boru

Me neither, but Yoda and Thor also have never lied to me either.

If you watched ESB Yoda lied to all of us when he kept kenobi's lie about anakin being separate from vader. 

Thor lied to us in the mcu because he portrays himself as a God when in fact they create nothing, and he oden and all of asgard are nothing more than a invading species of alien.

If you watched the movies those characters lied to you.. their dialog was intended for your ears not that of their follow characters their screen time was for YOUR benefit... So if you saw those movies and follow the plot you where lied to.

Now if you take the same level of canonical material and apply it to what God said... No you have not been lied to.

---

Um no D, if one is to claim a God is "all powerful" then saying "cant" negates that power. For a God to be "all powerful" they have to be capable of lying to include any and all actions. Exclude an action, that puts a limit on the word "all".

The better argument, I'd make if I were still a theist would be, "He wouldn't do that, even though he can if he wants to".

But even then, you are stuck with "How would you know?"  What methodology and control groups would help you objectively determine you've been told the truth by such a being?

He cant be "all powerful" if he is incapable of lying, even about an oath.

Catch 22.

If he can't lie then he'd not all powerful. Which means that he lied about being all powerful

maybe I'm guilty of assuming you guys can follow more than one arguement at a time.

My OP to you I refuted your reading of hebrews.

Then my second post denoted by the line:

---

I explain how an all powerful God being all powerful can indeed limit himself if he wants to... and as evidenced by the passage in hebrews, God does indeed elect to limit himself by not being able to break his own oaths.

---

So God said something would happen, and he proved what he said by adding an oath. 18 These two things cannot change: God cannot lie when he says something, and he cannot lie when he makes an oath.

...

So the question remains Can God lie? according to the passage in hebrews he will not lie under oath. can he lie not under oath? as you pointed out in the OT he indeed can if it suits him.

Then yur next question is is God sinning when he lies?

No.

Why?

creator privilege.
...

I think Drich probably has the Bible right here. It's not Drich's fault that's that's what it says. It's not God's fault either.

I think the problem is Christianity's PR department. They put out all this misinformation leading people to think that the Christian God is truthful by his very nature.

No, silly. That's only for oaths. LOL that your stupid ass fell for that schtick. There's a sucker born every minute, right? Read the fine print! There are caveats...

It's not just Yahweh's supposed truthfulness that gets the lawyer treatment from Christianity's PR department either. Do you think Christians really practice "Love your enemies." Well sure, in a way. But there are plenty of caveats there, too. The point is, if a Christian wants to hate their enemy, it isn't too hard for them to lawyer up a reason to make that hatred a-okay with God. Same goes with judgmentalism, vengeance, and, bearing false witness. To Christians, the commandments against these behaviors are more a set of advertising slogans than principles they genuinely live by. Again, read the fine print. There are caveats...

I agree to a degree.

We can and do al sorts of thing like hating our enmies (look at the US ISIS relationship under obama.) I don't see any love lost between the two. I can't imagine a christian in that region or in this inviting a hard core isis fighter into their home.

But at the same time it does not make it right.

however, 'we' Christians via Jesus and the bible are not called to live by a moral code either. The moral ode stuff is all man made religion/man's denominational beliefs.

God/Christ would have us live via love/agape'.

Meaning Our love for our families and neighbors would prevent us for putting them in danger's way by having a known murderer come into our home. To our love for our families and the people who live around us would keep us from putting one man's needs over that of our god given family's need.

So yes we can be nasty we can even go to war in light of the command to love our neighbor, but it is out of love and defense of our greater charge to love and protect our own that trumps the will of a people who would see us dead.

[Smaug]

...meaning you get the truth, and not just the crap the church wants to spew from the pulpits on sunday... isn't that the point of this forum?

Well, to certain extent I did get the truth and it is good. You're one of the very few believers who are honest about it.

So the God of the Bible is like that. But it doesn't take away the ever present question. What makes him real for you? How is he more real than, say, the spirits the Chinese believe in? Or the Hindu gods? I know it's beating the dead horse but still.

To me God (and gods) is either a sweet delusion that people want to have to deal with the brutality of life and their insecurities or a tool in the hands of all sorts of manipulators. The former is okey but one has to be always carefull not to let their delusions lead them into a trap (same goes to all the irrational beliefs). The Church may make one comfortable but it's a dangerous deal that may come at a price of becoming a milking cow and a tool without even knowing it. Same goes with many secular ideologies. You have to be very carefull with what you sign up to.

[Drich]

...meaning you get the truth, and not just the crap the church wants to spew from the pulpits on sunday... isn't that the point of this forum?

Well, to certain extent I did get the truth and it is good. You're one of the very few believers who are honest about it.

I had an experience of my final judgement and Hell. When Christ approached me I knew I would never measure up (Up to that time I wanted to spit in his eye/punch god in the face) for a moment I looked into his eyes I saw and understood everything for asecond. I saw everything as God saw everything and what's more I felt the love of God. this love was beyond anything I can describe. it made me feel 'complete.' And as soon as I was ready to be apart of all of that I hear away from me you evil servant, I never knew you.... Then whole hell thing told here: https://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html

The point being just before I was consumed meaning just befor the crazy panic pain and desperation burned out my consciousness and made me into a rabbid husk I thought to my self if I had only known the truth things would be different, had I not been fooled by the church version of God, had I only sought God as his word commanded things would be different. To me that was the worst part of hell after experienceing God love for a moment and knowing that was what i was to be apart of if I had only known...

When I was given my second change I made my life about finding the truth and sharing it no matter what church said. Once I found God in this life I try and share the exact same experience with others. (experiencing God on his terms in this life.)

So the God of the Bible is like that. But it doesn't take away the ever present question. What makes him real for you? How is he more real than, say, the spirits the Chinese believe in? Or the Hindu gods? I know it's beating the dead horse but still.

Asie from the "dream" of judgement? (I say dream because I started my journey in bed and woke up in a much wetter bed.) I got to meet a messenger/angel: https://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html

Then the things he promised started comming true. Spiritually speaking I wanted to have the knowledge of solomon at some point in my past and he/the angel knew this and said God heard me and was going to grant me a knowledge greater than anything solomon could have had. And he also said "and yes like solomon you will be granted more riches than you can imagine." So I wondered if the bible said solomon was the wisest and richest man who ever lived or will live then how can what this guy be telling be true?

Then the answer was given to me. Solomon's wisdom came from the seat of man, while I have been given access to the Holy Spirit of God. Meaning Solomon even without God's direct help retained 100% of his wisdom, while I depend 100% on God's help via the holy Spirit for help on the question I answer here and in other places..

Like my best example is the reconciliation of creation with evolution without changing a letter of either account of orgins. meaning God showed me how a 7 day creation works with the complete theory of evolution in any form with any time line science wants to put foruth. not only that it also preserves the 6000 year time line created through the genealogies. and on top of all of that it clears up all o fthe supposed paradoxes created by the traditional reading of genesis. IE who did adam's children marry, where did the city of nod that cain ran off to come from.

This was all given to me as if I where watching a movie that took about 15 mins. and again I do not change a word of the bible nor a wrd of the evolutionary theory. I simply show you how the church has been mis reading and mis interpreting the bible wrong all of these years.

That would be one example of the Holy Spirit giving me utterance/wisdom.
Answering the epurcean paradox was like a 2 min thing.

And just about all of the other typical atheist type questions and post you do not see here anymore.

To me God (and gods) is either a sweet delusion that people want to have to deal with the brutality of life and their insecurities or a tool in the hands of all sorts of manipulators.

This may have been true for me in the beginning, but God as I said or as he promised via his messenger has blessed me greatly. I am far more successful than my station in life would normally allow me to be.

The former is okey but one has to be always carefull not to let their delusions lead them into a trap (same goes to all the irrational beliefs). The Church  may make one comfortable but it's a dangerous deal that may come at a price of becoming a milking cow and a tool without even knowing it. Same goes with many secular ideologies. You have to be very carefull with what you sign up to.

The church like you said other ideologies is always a double edged sword. on one hand it can help you out of a bad place but then it can become about maintaining authority and position in the church.

Christianity as God intended is about freedom and love. So much so that if you need a tight and demanding church you can find God there, while at the same time one does not even have to attend typical 'church' services. Where just about anything so long as you heart mind spirit and strength are focused in the right place goes. Which is the primary reason there are so many different expression of the church. why? because none of us has it "right 100% of the time. But again that is ok because the same grace that forgives us when we sin also forgives us for being all the we can be and do for God but get the whole worship thing wrong anyway. So even as a legalistic heavy church we can find the same God as if we attended an on line chat or a vlog type of church. Because the church is just a tool we all have to use to build a relationship. it is not an automatic way into heaven.

[madog]

Drich wrote

"Your argument is mine 'smart guy.' God can indeed lie if he wants...

Sort of like your other hero Trump  .... You have low standards Drich

Difference between you and me is, I take everything from a known liar with a pinch of salt 

[Drich]

Drich wrote

"Your argument is mine 'smart guy.' God can indeed lie if he wants...

Sort of like your other hero Trump  .... You have low standards Drich

Difference between you and me is, I take everything from a known liar with a pinch of salt 

you must eat alot of salt.