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Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
#21
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 21, 2020 at 1:28 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: 1 I see what I put as logical and reasoned facts.
Lots of people think that about their beliefs.

Quote:2 Give a couple of examples. I might be able to deal with them. I say might because you are a bright guy. I hope you are not thinking theft or other things I can easily refute.
I'm not thinking of any particular thing when I say sin.  

Quote: 3 What great evil do you see when we cooperate?
The greatest evils are done by cooperation - things like war, for example.  

Quote:"Sin is (supposed to be) the thing that compels us to evil, not the specific evil, or any given circumstance of evil."

Jesus took that further and said to even just think of a sin was a sin. I have done a lot of sinning in my mind. Not nearly as much in reality.

I do not agree with him particularly on this thought sin or thought crime thing. It is handy to mentally "sin" to form proofs of concept.
Sure, we sin in thought with regularity.  We play with the idea of doing the wrong thing far more often than we do the wrong thing.  Sin is the things that compels us to evil.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
"The greatest evils are done by cooperation - things like war, for example."

I see the West cooperating enough to end WWII as a huge good.

We are looking at the Yin and Yang of war and must recognize both the good and evil sides if we are to think of mitigating the evil side of war.

This was seen as satire, but I hear it differently.

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmc72fCJivA

Regards
DL
Reply
#23
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
There you have it. If you can see good and evil in cooperation, then your previous statement -when we cooperate, there is no harm, lose, sin or evil-
cannot be true. It is not an issue of logical and reasoned fact.

Sin, otoh, is present whether we do good or evil. It's the x that makes us contemplate wrong behavior or engage in wrong thought even as we do the right thing, and even if we never act on it. I don't agree with your ideas about cooperation and competition as good and bad making properties - but the beauty of sin as a concept is that it's metric neutral. Sin is not competition...sin would be the thing that compels you to compete when you could cooperate. Sin is the x that makes it difficult for you to see opportunities to cooperate.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#24
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 22, 2020 at 9:59 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There you have it. If you can see good and evil in cooperation, then your previous statement -when we cooperate, there is no harm, lose, sin or evil-
cannot be true.  It is not an issue of logical and reasoned fact.  

Sin, otoh, is present whether we do good or evil.  It's the x that makes us contemplate wrong behavior or engage in wrong thought even as we do the right thing, and even if we never act on it.  I don't agree with your ideas about cooperation and competition as good and bad making properties - but the beauty of sin as a concept is that it's metric neutral.  Sin is not competition...sin would be the thing that compels you to compete when you could cooperate.  Sin is the x that makes it difficult for you to see opportunities to cooperate.

??

What harm did I show in cooperation? 

I did show harm to the opposing group but the internal cooperation of the first group is good for all within it.

For the out group, sure, they will see evil in the others cooperation while giving full marks to his own side's cooperation.

I do not deny that in our dualistic universe, cooperation likely has the evil side of not finding the fittest in the one side, or both, but like in the WWII scenario, there was a greater good at stake and our cooperation saved us from speaking German.

"Sin, otoh, is present whether we do good or evil."

I take it you mean a thought sin, and disagree, as scenarios can be thought up as comparisons without the thought of personally doing the act.

If that was not your point, show an example of what you mean.

"Sin is the x that makes it difficult for you to see opportunities to cooperate."

Our selfish gene is what leads us. It defaults to cooperation in us when young, as that is the best survival strategy. 

Later, when we start to compete is when sins would come to mind. We wish to win and will do what is acceptable, generally, to win.

Regards
DL
Reply
#25
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Just as before, it cannot be true that there is no harm, loss, or evil in cooperation...if there is lesser harm, loss or evil in cooperation - and even that claim is iffy.

At any rate, if sin is somehow hereditary or intrinsic to human beings, then ofc a child could sin and be sinful as well. You can hold to whatever beliefs you like about evil, competition, and cooperation - but sin isn't what you're talking about in that case.

What would you say is the thing that compels people to competition, instead of cooperation? That thing, whatever that is for you, would be the kind of thing we're discussing when we consider the concept of sin.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#26
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 22, 2020 at 10:49 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Just as before, it cannot be true that there is no harm, loss, or evil in cooperation...if there is lesser harm, loss or evil in cooperation - and even that claim is iffy.  

At any rate, if sin is somehow hereditary or intrinsic to human beings, then ofc a child could sin and be sinful as well.  You can hold to whatever beliefs you like about evil, competition, and cooperation - but sin isn't what you're talking about in that case.

What would you say is the thing that compels people to competition, instead of cooperation?  That thing, whatever that is for you, would be the kind of thing we're discussing when we consider the concept of sin.

You are still not showing the evil/sin of cooperation.

To your last.

We are all born the fittest of our line. We all want to rule, as the fittest of our line.

We cooperate until we see a time where we can show ourselves as the fittest. 

It becomes clearer if you look at other tribal animals. You see the cubs cooperating and playing, until the mating urge starts and then the play become fighting for the right to breed.

The young cub will bide his time cooperatively for the security of the group, until he thinks himself fit enough to take it over.

Regards
DL
Reply
#27
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
If I make the claim that there is no sweetness in the color red, I can't then wax on about the sweetness and sourness of red as a yin and yang.

You, GIA, are providing the demonstrations that you see evil in cooperation, and also, fwiw, good. Greater good, even. Your two opinions on the subject cannot be true simultaneously because they are directly antithetical claims. Either there is lesser evil in cooperation, or there is no evil in cooperation.

Pick one.

I don't care, I think that you're wrong either way, but it will be an improvement from the point of view of logical discourse, which is what you believe your position to be, and there's no need to argue your good and bad making theory to explain what the concept of sin is about because sin is metric neutral.

In your telling, sin would refer to the urge to mate. If that's the thing that makes us engage in all of our bad thoughts, if that's the thing that compels us to competition rather than cooperation, that's sin. It's intrinsic to human beings as a consequence of heredity. Not the competition, not the evil, the thing that compels us to it. As suspected, you do accept the concept of sin, you do think that there's something about people that compels us to evil - you just use a different word for it, and have prudish ideas about what that thing is.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#28
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 22, 2020 at 12:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If I make the claim that there is no sweetness in the color red, I can't then wax on about the sweetness and sourness of red as a yin and yang.  

You, GIA, are providing the demonstrations that you see evil in cooperation, and also, fwiw, good.  Greater good, even.  Your two opinions on the subject cannot be true simultaneously because they are directly antithetical claims.  Either there is lesser evil in cooperation, or there is no evil in cooperation.

Pick one.  

I don't care, I think that you're wrong either way, but it will be an improvement from the point of view of logical discourse, which is what you believe your position to be, and there's no need to argue your good and bad making theory to explain what the concept of sin is about because sin is metric neutral.

In your telling, sin would refer to the urge to mate.  If that's the thing that makes us engage in all of our bad thoughts, if that's the thing that compels us to competition rather than cooperation, that's sin.  It's intrinsic to human beings as a consequence of heredity.  Not the competition, not the evil, the thing that compels us to it.  As suspected, you do accept the concept of sin, you do think that there's something about people that compels us to evil - you just use a different word for it, and have prudish ideas about what that thing is.

Please, less psychobabble.

If I want a shrink, I will find one.

As to the evils of cooperation, if we cooperate all the time, we would never know who is the fittest.

Why do you think we do sports?

Regards
DL
Reply
#29
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
We "do sports" for alot of reasons. A list would be inconsequential if competition were evil. All of the reasons would then be evil reasons.

We never know who is The Fittest™. Both competition and cooperation demonstrate a specific and limited fitness. We can use either for good or for evil - neither of which are a measure of biological fitness in the first place.

Again, though, it's not necessary to argue your good or bad making properties. Sin in your telling is the urge to mate...not the competition or the cooperation that urge may engender. If we cooperated out of the urge to mate, we would be cooperating by compulsion of sin. If we compete out of the urge to mate, we compete by the compulsion of sin. Sin is the thing that compels, not the circumstance it happens in, or the action it causes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#30
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 20, 2020 at 4:07 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.


Protestants through Martin Luther agree.  
“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” Martin Luther


]Christians and Catholics agree and sing of sin being a happy fault, due to keeping Yahweh’s Great Plan on track.
Quote:

The sex of the talking serpent is not known, --- as far as I know, --- but she is likely female.


not true, eve was the mother of nations and at the end of a very long search to find adam a equal/suitable companion. abraham's wife was also the one grounded in truth while he lied and made enemies of kings. Ruth was also a outstanding woman and model in the bible.
 
Quote:Women are the archetypal source of evil for man; and deserves it. Happily. They are the evolutionary prize.
you have to ignore 1/2 the women in the bible to make that determination.
 
Quote:Not for sin, of course. That is mostly man’s fault, thanks to testosterone.
 
Men are forced to compete for women and those competitions are the source of all human to human evil.
examples?
 
Quote:The problem of evil is puny as compared to the greater good of our continuing existence.
citation?
 
Quote:Gnostic Christians were known as the only good Christians.

Christ literally taught there are no good people period. So that is crap/lie.
Quote:This, of course, given that my old Jesus mind has created my Christ consciousness, --- thanks to Gnosis, --- I know this to have some merit, but cannot personally take that label. It must be recognized.
by whom?
 
Quote:One cannot acclaim oneself legitimately.
 
I can claim to be a great sinner, because you have to be to have a Christ consciousness. I have sinned in my mind and that is as good as doing evil, said Jesus.
because doing good does not buy you heaven. there is a greater righteousness at play here.
roamans 5:So that one sin of Adam brought the punishment of death to all people. But in the same way, Christ did something so good that it makes all people right with God. And that brings them true life. 19 One man disobeyed God and many became sinners. But in the same way, one man obeyed God and many will be made right. 20 The law was brought in so that more people would sin the way Adam did. But where sin increased, there was even more of God’s grace. 21 Sin once used death to rule us. But God gave us more of his grace so that grace could rule by making us right with him. And this brings us eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.So do you think we should continue sinning so that God will give us more and more grace? Of course not! Our old sinful life ended. It’s dead. So how can we continue living in sin? Did you forget that all of us became part of Christ Jesus when we were baptized? In our baptism we shared in his death. So when we were baptized, we were buried with Christ and took part in his death. And just as Christ was raised from death by the wonderful power of the Father, so we can now live a new life.

Christ died, and we have been joined with him by dying too. So we will also be joined with him by rising from death as he did. We know that our old life was put to death on the cross with Christ. This happened so that our sinful selves would have no power over us. Then we would not be slaves to sin. Anyone who has died is made free

 
Given my old Jesus consciousness, that is morphing into my Christ consciousness, --- through sinning greatly, --- I would invite all believers to do so, so as to get closer to god.
 
Quote:I did not check the Qur’an, but like the other Abrahamic religions, it too likely has Allah thinking sin is a really happy fault and great part of God’s Great Plan.
 
read passage in romans if you are concerned with what the bible has to say.
Quote:The mentally Catholic/Christian/Torah part of me, has to agree with how Yahweh, although I hate to give that genocidal ^^&*&^&*  any credit for anything the mythicists put into his vile demiurge mouth.
 
The term Demiurge was likely invented by the more polite Gnostics. I like my modern interpretation. Plain evil.
 
I had to modernize it so that the literalists would perhaps take note and reduce his status; at least to below Jesus and Hitler. Mind you, literalists would have Jesus do Armageddon. Yuk.
 
As men compete and create most of the human to human evil in the world, a necessary evil, let us all pray that those that have shown themselves to be the fittest oligarchs, remember how generous they have been in the past and personally, I would like to see them compete in their philanthropy, that has already greatly improved our socio economic progress.
 
Are the Abrahamic religions correct in their view of sin being good? 
 
I think they are but should work a lot harder at teaching Abrahamists what that means, so as to check their turn or burn unreligious views.
 
It is Christians who must turn from their vile god, or burn, not the other way around as Christians claim.
 
Regards
DL
you have completely misrepresented the bible in such a way i can only assume it is intentional.  this is a biblical interpretation of sin.. good and evil represent only 1/3 of the totality of sin. which makes 2/3s of everything you said here wrong.
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