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Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
#31
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 11:29 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We "do sports" for alot of reasons.  A list would be inconsequential if competition were evil.  All of the reasons would then be evil reasons.  

We never know who is The Fittest™.  Both competition and cooperation demonstrate a specific and limited fitness.   We can use either for good or for evil - neither of which are a measure of biological fitness in the first place.  

Again, though, it's not necessary to argue your good or bad making properties.  Sin in your telling is the urge to mate...not the competition or the cooperation that urge may engender.  If we cooperated out of the urge to mate, we would be cooperating by compulsion of sin.  If we compete out of the urge to mate, we compete by the compulsion of sin.  Sin is the thing that compels, not the circumstance it happens in, or the action it causes.

The survival of the fittest is described in part as the ability to reproduce.

Cooperating with the women is good, but our instincts want us to prove our fitness by competition.

We will not go look for an adversary, but will certainly fight when someone else comes by to compete for our woman.

Regards
DL

(September 23, 2020 at 3:32 pm)Drich Wrote:
(September 20, 2020 at 4:07 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.


Protestants through Martin Luther agree.  
“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” Martin Luther


]Christians and Catholics agree and sing of sin being a happy fault, due to keeping Yahweh’s Great Plan on track.
Quote:

The sex of the talking serpent is not known, --- as far as I know, --- but she is likely female.


not true, eve was the mother of nations and at the end of a very long search to find adam a equal/suitable companion. abraham's wife was also the one grounded in truth while he lied and made enemies of kings. Ruth was also a outstanding woman and model in the bible.
 
Quote:Women are the archetypal source of evil for man; and deserves it. Happily. They are the evolutionary prize.
you have to ignore 1/2 the women in the bible to make that determination.
 
Quote:Not for sin, of course. That is mostly man’s fault, thanks to testosterone.
 
Men are forced to compete for women and those competitions are the source of all human to human evil.
examples?
 
Quote:The problem of evil is puny as compared to the greater good of our continuing existence.
citation?
 
Quote:Gnostic Christians were known as the only good Christians.

Christ literally taught there are no good people period. So that is crap/lie.
Quote:This, of course, given that my old Jesus mind has created my Christ consciousness, --- thanks to Gnosis, --- I know this to have some merit, but cannot personally take that label. It must be recognized.
by whom?
 
Quote:One cannot acclaim oneself legitimately.
 
I can claim to be a great sinner, because you have to be to have a Christ consciousness. I have sinned in my mind and that is as good as doing evil, said Jesus.
because doing good does not buy you heaven. there is a greater righteousness at play here.
roamans 5:So that one sin of Adam brought the punishment of death to all people. But in the same way, Christ did something so good that it makes all people right with God. And that brings them true life. 19 One man disobeyed God and many became sinners. But in the same way, one man obeyed God and many will be made right. 20 The law was brought in so that more people would sin the way Adam did. But where sin increased, there was even more of God’s grace. 21 Sin once used death to rule us. But God gave us more of his grace so that grace could rule by making us right with him. And this brings us eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.So do you think we should continue sinning so that God will give us more and more grace? Of course not! Our old sinful life ended. It’s dead. So how can we continue living in sin? Did you forget that all of us became part of Christ Jesus when we were baptized? In our baptism we shared in his death. So when we were baptized, we were buried with Christ and took part in his death. And just as Christ was raised from death by the wonderful power of the Father, so we can now live a new life.

Christ died, and we have been joined with him by dying too. So we will also be joined with him by rising from death as he did. We know that our old life was put to death on the cross with Christ. This happened so that our sinful selves would have no power over us. Then we would not be slaves to sin. Anyone who has died is made free

 
Given my old Jesus consciousness, that is morphing into my Christ consciousness, --- through sinning greatly, --- I would invite all believers to do so, so as to get closer to god.
 
Quote:I did not check the Qur’an, but like the other Abrahamic religions, it too likely has Allah thinking sin is a really happy fault and great part of God’s Great Plan.
 
read passage in romans if you are concerned with what the bible has to say.
Quote:The mentally Catholic/Christian/Torah part of me, has to agree with how Yahweh, although I hate to give that genocidal ^^&*&^&*  any credit for anything the mythicists put into his vile demiurge mouth.
 
The term Demiurge was likely invented by the more polite Gnostics. I like my modern interpretation. Plain evil.
 
I had to modernize it so that the literalists would perhaps take note and reduce his status; at least to below Jesus and Hitler. Mind you, literalists would have Jesus do Armageddon. Yuk.
 
As men compete and create most of the human to human evil in the world, a necessary evil, let us all pray that those that have shown themselves to be the fittest oligarchs, remember how generous they have been in the past and personally, I would like to see them compete in their philanthropy, that has already greatly improved our socio economic progress.
 
Are the Abrahamic religions correct in their view of sin being good? 
 
I think they are but should work a lot harder at teaching Abrahamists what that means, so as to check their turn or burn unreligious views.
 
It is Christians who must turn from their vile god, or burn, not the other way around as Christians claim.
 
Regards
DL
you have completely misrepresented the bible in such a way i can only assume it is intentional.  this is a biblical interpretation of sin.. good and evil represent only 1/3 of the totality of sin. which makes 2/3s of everything you said here wrong.

You must be a lot brighter than I, even though you positing that a genocidal prick of a god is somehow a good god, which shows that even the bright can have satanic morals.

If evolutionary demands for competition are not the source of all human to human evil, bright boy,  what is?

Regards
DL
Reply
#32
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 3:43 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: The survival of the fittest is described in part as the ability to reproduce.

Cooperating with the women is good, but our instincts want us to prove our fitness by competition.

We will not go look for an adversary, but will certainly fight when someone else comes by to compete for our woman.

Regards
DL
Seems to me like people get up to bad thought and bad action even when there aren't any sexual partners around, and even when we're already squared away on that count.  
While the concept of sin is still intelligible and present in this context, to me, it sounds as fanciful and silly as the christian contents of the same.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#33
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 4:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(September 23, 2020 at 3:43 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: The survival of the fittest is described in part as the ability to reproduce.

Cooperating with the women is good, but our instincts want us to prove our fitness by competition.

We will not go look for an adversary, but will certainly fight when someone else comes by to compete for our woman.

Regards
DL
Seems to me like people get up to bad thought and bad action even when there aren't any sexual partners around, and even when we're already squared away on that count.  
While the concept of sin is still intelligible and present in this context, to me, it sounds as fanciful and silly as the christian contents of the same.

??

There are no evil or sinful sexual fantasies if it is consentually based.

I cannot speak for the other type.

As to your understanding, not surprising. We were more in competition for the supremacy of ideas that cooperating.

As a Gnostic Christian, I find it fairly easy to see and use analogues terms between the various ideologies and theologies. Sin, crime, evil, bad, --- while each has it's specific definition, when I balance things out, they are all on the same side.

Perhaps, and I hope, that that penchant is what made the older Gnostic sects more moral than Christians as it allowed us to see Yahweh for the prick he is.

Regards
DL
Reply
#34
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 4:57 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: what made the older Gnostic sects more moral than Christians

Can you give some historical examples of older Gnostic sects being more moral than Christians? I'm curious.
Reply
#35
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 5:12 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(September 23, 2020 at 4:57 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: what made the older Gnostic sects more moral than Christians

Can you give some historical examples of older Gnostic sects being more moral than Christians? I'm curious.

A few quick ones come to mind.

We are universalists and do not discriminate against gays and women without a just cause the way Christians do.

We do not idol worship as Christians do.

We never used inquisitions.

We have never embraced a genocidal Yahweh and named him a demiurge.

We never claim to be the only way to enlightenment or believed that a true god would condemn his creation unjustly like Yahweh did.

We also never bought into Jesus dying for our sins as his asking us to ride a scapegoat and abdicate our responsibility for our actions is completely immoral.

I could go on.

Regards
DL
Reply
#36
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 5:35 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: We are universalists and do not discriminate against gays and women without a just cause the way Christians do.

When you say "we," are you referring only to your current group of gnostics? Or is this true of gnostics in general, all the time?

One thing that seems safe to say about gnostics: there was a wide variety. Differences of opinion among gnostics were even wider than among the early Christians, at least at first. I don't know, maybe you guys have reached consensus by this time. 

Christians haven't yet reached an overall consensus regarding gay people. More and more Christians say they're fine. My niece's church says on its home page that they're happy to do gay weddings. 

In general, gnostics hold that matter is evil and spirit is good. In many cases this has led to skepticism concerning bodily pleasures. Asceticism, including a rejection of both gay and straight sex, was not unusual. 

Can you point to any early gnostic texts (say, first or second century) that address homosexuality? Scholarly secondary sources would also be interesting.
Reply
#37
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 21, 2020 at 11:44 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Jews just say Eden was a success for both man and god, while Christians see both man and god as losers who cannot get things right.

Jews brand Eden Original Virtue, while Christians brand it Original Sin.

Christians usurped the Jewish god but scrapped the ideology.

I am no expert on Jewish theology, but I agree that "original sin" was considered a mixed blessing even by the writers.  It wasn't all bad.

In the garden, Adam and Eve were like children.  Taking the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil made them moral and intelligent agents.  The punishment of "the fall" was to prevent mankind from being rivals to the gods themselves (yes, plural).

Its a bit of a fun fairy tale, if so much bad didn't come out of people taking it literally.
Reply
#38
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
(September 23, 2020 at 4:57 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: ??

There are no evil or sinful sexual fantasies if it is consentually based.

I cannot speak for the other type.

The urge to mate would be sin, not sex of any particular kind.   The thing that compels, not the thing you do on account of it.  All things derived from that urge would be sinful things, all evil.  Consent, no consent, samesies.

Quote:As to your understanding, not surprising. We were more in competition for the supremacy of ideas that cooperating.
Which begs the q...who am I trying to fuck?  If the urge to mate is sin as you describe, and this is what engenders conflict in human beings, which is our barometer for evil....who's the lucky girl?

Quote:As a Gnostic Christian, I find it fairly easy to see and use analogues terms between the various ideologies and theologies. Sin, crime, evil, bad, --- while each has it's specific definition, when I balance things out, they are all on the same side.

Perhaps, and I hope, that that penchant is what made the older Gnostic sects more moral than Christians as it allowed us to see Yahweh for the prick he is.

Regards
DL
That's the general notion, yeah, that all of these things are related.  Sin is the thing that compels us to evil, bad is a descriptor for those things, and crime is a subset for which we have laws.  Seeing as how all of these concepts are immensely consequential in our lives, we should probably have an accurate understanding of them, and I don't think that fingering the urge to mate as sin is that description.  

In the wider view, sin as intrinsic to human beings, you couldn't be more moral™ on that count.  You have a different religion, but you still have the urge to mate which still drives you to competition.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#39
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
This is quite interesting.

Do y'all think that instincts, particularly those who we only have a partial control over, be considered sinning when those instincts (like the urge to mate) has a harmful outcome? I feel like I'm missing something about sin, that I'm not quite getting.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
Reply
#40
RE: Sinning, as Jesus and the church say, is good. Turn or burn Christians.
Sin is very much and very strongly described as instinctual. We still maintain that we have instincts to good and instincts to bad, except in the case of utter or complete depravity. Without trying to litigate that particular issue, and being inclusive, it's commonly maintained that human beings are either partially capable or completely incapable, but never fully capable.

Sin is the proposition that there is something intrinsic and hereditary to human beings that makes this so. The claim that this something routinely compromises our moral agency. Not the specific act or the outcome, the underlying cause.

I want to stress again that the contents of sin in any specific telling may be in error - and we may all be in fundamental error of sins existence, this is a descriptive explanation of sin and morality. Insomuch as we are human and we take humans to be experts on being human - it's a perception that we share even if we use different words to describe it or fill the set with disparate contents.

Our bad thoughts and bad actions that arise out of the desire to mate, for example..can be intelligibly considered as a member of the set - but since it fails to exhaust all of the possible and experienced compulsions to bad thought and bad action, other things like itself, it's not sin. Sin is the thing that this member and all of the other members have in common. In a profound sense, our humanity itself is sin. Best intentions and all. This, because the list of uniquely human compulsions to evil will be directly transferable to a list of what makes humans, human.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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