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What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
#21
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
Facts, eventually. It's just a slow process, sadly because silly emotional people prefer the comfort of their religious fantasies.

Of course, religion will never completely become obsolete. I figure the most for which we can hope is that the religious believer becomes a very small, unimportant minority.
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
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#22
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
Religion isn't a mistake about how life is, but a statement on how it should be. It's not going to go away or become small or unimportant so long as people have ideas on how life should be.

Chances are, it'll get bigger. A more expansive set of claims could unite even more people. We haven't seen an organized scientific religion or an organized humanist religion quite yet.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#23
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 8:23 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Religion isn't a mistake about how life is, but a statement on how it should be.  It's not going to go away or become small or unimportant so long as people have ideas on how life should be.

Chances are, it'll get bigger.  A more expansive set of claims could unite even more people.  We haven't seen an organized scientific religion or an organized humanist religion quite yet.

We have neither of those as they are both self-contradictory.  Neither science nor humanism is tied to religion in any way.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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#24
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
I'm not sure that I agree with them being self-contradictory...but when has a self contradictory nature ever been a problem for a religion?

Generally speaking, religion accrues value making and value makers. The disposition of those things is a snapshot in time for a culture. Right now, science and humanism have immense amounts of credibility - and that makes them desirable items. Religions compete in the ideological marketplace by supplying the religious products that believers desire - and whatever we may think about iders and young earth creationists - it's clear that they value the credibility of scientific rhetoric. So, too, do we see so-called progressive christians leveraging humanist rhetoric to reimagine their legendary wise man.

It's because these things are so broadly valued that they've been increasingly included in religion. We might view current attempts as contradictory or rooted in falsehoods - but place them in context as current attempts. Weighed down by immense cultural baggage. Their efforts will improve and have improved, again in context. Wholly aside from that, though, there is no reason to assume that we're incapable of making true assertions rooted in scientific facts and humanist values about the sacred and taboo, how things should be, assertions that bring an even greater number of us into a moral community. That's the kind of religion sagan was talking about, the religion of nature that crosby wrote about. Contemporary religious humanism. Distinct from traditional religious humanism in that it references natural facts, rather than facts of the divine, to establish it's religious assertions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#25
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 8, 2020 at 8:54 pm)brewer Wrote: The religion that comes up with the best promises of reward and/or punishment, depending on what's in vogue.

In the US it feels like the prosperity guys are winning, or at least that's what TV is telling me.

Trump's side. The con is on, as usual.

I think it is more the punishment that attracts. That is why Christians and Muslims idol worship a genocidal god.

In carrot stick thinking, you can't beat that genocidal Yahweh. He has the biggest dick.

Regards
DL

(December 8, 2020 at 9:50 pm)Eleven Wrote: Facts, eventually. It's just a slow process, sadly because silly emotional people prefer the comfort of their religious fantasies.

Of course, religion will never completely become obsolete. I figure the most for which we can hope is that the religious believer becomes a very small, unimportant minority.

If atheist are going to rely on hope, all I can say is the old adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is sit back and hope for change.

I try to push atheists to be more active and even militant against the religions that persecuted you guys for so many years.

These days, the religious mostly only bad mouth atheists.

If you live by the Golden Rule, you will do more than hope.

I have a plan of attack. Attack.

Regards
DL

(December 9, 2020 at 8:23 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Religion isn't a mistake about how life is, but a statement on how it should be.  It's not going to go away or become small or unimportant so long as people have ideas on how life should be.

Chances are, it'll get bigger.  A more expansive set of claims could unite even more people.  We haven't seen an organized scientific religion or an organized humanist religion quite yet.

We had such uniting claims in the past, but the inquisitors were quite active against those Gnostic Christians that preached it.

Many creeds, superior to Christianity, fell under their knives.

Regards
DL
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#26
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
We have them now. All religious claims are this kind of claim. While you may lament the death of what you believe to be a better claim - it was precisely because the current christian regime could unite a greater community (and unite them in persecution, as well) into a moral whole that it survived, and gnostic christianity did not.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#27
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 2:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We have them now.  All religious claims are this kind of claim.  While you may lament the death of what you believe to be a better claim - it was precisely because the current christian regime could unite a greater community (and unite them in persecution, as well) into a moral whole that it survived, and gnostic christianity did not.

A moral whole?

Do you see Christianity, a homophobic and misogynous religion, as moral?

As to Gnostic Christianity, we never completely disappear. Free thinkers have always been among us.

Regards
DL
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#28
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 3:03 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 9, 2020 at 2:05 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We have them now.  All religious claims are this kind of claim.  While you may lament the death of what you believe to be a better claim - it was precisely because the current christian regime could unite a greater community (and unite them in persecution, as well) into a moral whole that it survived, and gnostic christianity did not.

A moral whole?

Do you see Christianity, a homophobic and misogynous religion, as moral?

As to Gnostic Christianity, we never completely disappear. Free thinkers have always been among us.

Regards
DL

Of course Christianity is moral. ALL belief systems are moral - that their morals don’t coincide with yours doesn’t signify. 

You’re so silly.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#29
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 3:03 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: A moral whole?

Yes, a moral whole.  People who agree with each other over a set of normative claims.  

Quote:Do you see Christianity, a homophobic and misogynous religion, as moral?

The phrase "united in a moral whole" is value and truth neutral.  It refers to unity over normative content, not the normative value of that content or the truth value of that content.  Consider four very different abstracted religions.

1 agrees over a set of normative claims | that are bad and false.
2 agrees over a set of normative claims | that are bad and true.
3 agrees over a set of normative claims | that are good and false.
4 agrees over a set of normative claims | that are good and true.  

All four are united in a moral whole.  In reality, every religion is a mix of these things.  Thank you for bringing this to my attention, especially in light of a language barrier on top of subject jargon.  To give you an example - a cargo cultist may insist that you should be building wicker effigies.  That this is your responsibility, and a good thing to do.  You must do this, so that the god delivers life giving cargo.  God's name is Prince Phillip...and his preferred method of delivery, us military forces.  John Frum is his brother.....John -from america-, you see.  

You might notice the normative and factual nature of each claim yo-yoing back and forth between things you agree with and think are good and things you disagree with and think are bad and things you know to be true and things you know to be false...but the kastom people of the southern island of Tanna were united as a moral whole by these claims.  Some of them met him, and they now worship a signed picture he gave them.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#30
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 1:37 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: If atheist are going to rely on hope, all I can say is the old adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is sit back and hope for change.

I try to push atheists to be more active and even militant against the religions that persecuted you guys for so many years.

[Image: indubitably.jpg]
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
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