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A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
#41
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 8:05 am)Deesse23 Wrote:
(February 28, 2022 at 7:33 am)Jehanne Wrote: Are photons non-material since they have zero mass?
You are unfortunately wrong.

I agree.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#42
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
One could probably argue that all material is non material.
Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result
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#43
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 12:24 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: One could probably argue that all material is non material.

Matter is, typically, mostly empty space, and at the quark level, reality consists more of fields than of matter. Is God just another type of field?
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#44
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 1:06 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(February 28, 2022 at 12:54 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Simple things would be particles, such as photons, electrons, quarks, protons.
You seem to be assuming that God is a material object. What gives you this idea?

You should read Fake Messiah’s link.

Quote:Stephen J. Gould's concept of "Non-Overlapping Magisteria", which separates the world into a material realm that can be explained by science and a non-material realm that can be explained by religion, effectively turns the entire concept of religion into one big garage-dwelling Dragon.

And let’s talk about non-material objects. Numbers are non-material objects, languages are non-material objects, so are names, designs, emotions, music, literature, paintings, software.

Non-material objects have no effect on reality since they don’t exist.
There are millions of books that use numbers but numbers don’t exist. You are never going to find number 5 walking down the street.
What you will find is some molecules (the ink) on some other molecules (the paper).

Non-material things have no effect on reality:
Win XP doesn’t format your hard drive when you use Win XP to format your hard drive. What really happens is electricity interacting with atoms.

The only way for non-material things to exist is to have a material representation of it.

You can burn a book but you can never destroy number 5. You can only destroy the representation of number 5.
You can destroy representations of ideas, of stories, tables, chairs. But are you really destroying those ideas and those designs or do they exist somewhere?

So, I am going to have to disagree with you. If god or the aliens are real and they interact with our reality, then they are made of a similar stuff, or at least stuff that can interact with the forces of this universe {gravity, nuclear, electromagnetic, weak}.

And I asked:
So, what lead these people to claim that a god is absolutely simple?
What do they mean by absolutely simple. What are its properties?
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#45
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
god is real, this book and my mom tells me so.



Case closed!
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#46
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 7:29 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Numbers are non-material objects, languages are non-material objects, so are names, designs, emotions, music, literature, paintings, software.

Non-material objects have no effect on reality since they don’t exist.

Everything you list here has obvious effects on reality. Language, for example, structures how we think, and how we think affects what we do, and what we do is our reality. 

Quote:And I asked:
So, what lead these people to claim that a god is absolutely simple?
What do they mean by absolutely simple. What are its properties?

Did you look at the Stanford Encyclopedia link? This is Theology 101.
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#47
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
Names, designs, emotions, music, literature, and painting are all very efficacious- and also very material.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#48
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
Here is Karl Popper's classic text on the "three worlds": non-physical, mental, and material.

There is nothing supernatural here, so it's safe for atheists.

https://tannerlectures.utah.edu/_resourc...pper80.pdf
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#49
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 10:26 pm)Belacqua Wrote: Here is Karl Popper's classic text on the "three worlds": non-physical, mental, and material.

There is nothing supernatural here, so it's safe for atheists.

https://tannerlectures.utah.edu/_resourc...pper80.pdf

We read everything, and so, yes, it's safe. Popper was an agnostic, by the way.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
#50
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(February 28, 2022 at 9:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Names, designs, emotions, music, literature, and painting are all very efficacious- and also very material.

Perhaps, they appear to be material bc we only encounter a material form of them:

All those things are information. Maybe in the case of emotion, some people would call it a brain state or emotional state.

For a name, you might see it printed on a door or on a newspaper or on a website.
You can have the exact same name “George” appear on a door, in a newspaper, on a website.
You can’t have the exact same atom located in multiple places at the same time.

When the name “George” appears on a door, it is a structure. It is a specific arrangement of smaller components: molecule/atoms.
It is just paint and plastic.
It takes a brain to understand the structure.
You can even take the paint and plastic and change its structure and have it represent a screwdriver.

When you go to your hardware store and are interested in a certain drill. You might find boxes of the same drill. They are all the same design.
Design is information and information can be copied and destroyed.
The atoms/molecules of drill 1 and 2 are not the same but the design of drill 1 and 2 is the same.

Hope that helps.

(February 28, 2022 at 9:00 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(February 28, 2022 at 7:29 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Numbers are non-material objects, languages are non-material objects, so are names, designs, emotions, music, literature, paintings, software.

Non-material objects have no effect on reality since they don’t exist.

Everything you list here has obvious effects on reality. Language, for example, structures how we think, and how we think affects what we do, and what we do is our reality. 
Language, thoughts only have an effect with a material representation: the brain.
If you destroy the brain, the thoughts and language is not going to float around and go around pushing atoms.

You use your brain to control your muscles, to breath in air, to push out air and you use your vocal cords and mouth to make vibrations in air. That’s one way communication happens between humans.
Once you get rid of the material underpinnings (the atoms), there is nothing left to communicate.

All those components are made of atoms:
brain
muscles
air
vocal cords
mouth
and there is various forms of energy involved.


Quote:Did you look at the Stanford Encyclopedia link? This is Theology 101.

Nope.
We are having a discussion here. Give me a reasonable reason, something founded in reality, something connected with reality and compose the best argument that you can.

Forget your Plato, your Georges, your Simons. Think for yourself and compose the best argument that you can.
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