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A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 18, 2022 at 10:20 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: It's pretty obvious that the aim for "God's eternal punishment" is not justice, but control. After all, if the punishment isn't eternal, well shit. Might be worth doing... even if it means a period of discomfort in the afterlife. Not a very good way to control people. It also reveals that religion is just another way that people control people. After all, God could come down and enact his justice in front of everyone if he really wanted to drive the point home.
I remember a Christian I argued with who tried to compare hell to prison as if that alone was a justification. What he failed to account for is people can be thrown in prison for unjust reasons and prison is at least temporary (even a life sentence eventually ends)
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 18, 2022 at 10:20 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: It's pretty obvious that the aim for "God's eternal punishment" is not justice, but control. After all, if the punishment isn't eternal, well shit. Might be worth doing... even if it means a period of discomfort in the afterlife. Not a very good way to control people.

It is a colossal failure that it looks more like some sadist god wants to have his fun because already mentioned Hitler could easily avoid hell if he repented at the end of his life because he was a baptized Christian after all. While 1.2 billion people in India are going straight to hell no matter how "good" they are because they are polytheists who reject Jesus along with the majority of the world population, and even more if Muslims are "right".

But there is absolutely no evidence that hell exists.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
If you ever watch the movie "Saved!" (with Mandy Moore), be sure to watch the extended cut; great scene on this.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 18, 2022 at 4:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 18, 2022 at 3:58 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: Thank you for admitting that you are a moral thug, that your moral compass is skewed and that you have no idea of ethics.
See it wasnt that hard. Just stop evading, stop the dishonesty and the unfair personal attacks at the questioner.

I have seen people worse than an willfully ignorant and unethical barbarian like you on these boards. I have seen people like you, but unwilling to admit what shitty people they are.

tl;dr
You are admittedly a terrible human being, but there still are worse ones around.  Consoling

What's barbarian about condemning a mass murderer or a serial killer to eternal torment ?
By just honestly asking this question, you just made my point.  Consoling
No idea about ethics, no idea about what an actual infinity (of time) means. No idea about what suffering is, let alone what eternal suffering is.

A true, uninformed, willfully ignorant barbarian.


(March 18, 2022 at 4:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Hitler is responsible for the death of tens of millions of people, @Deesse23. Tell me what kind of finite punishment do you think is just?
According to you most probably infinite/eternal punishment, according to every person who has the slightest idea about ethics, who has compassion for other humans, nope.

(March 18, 2022 at 4:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Let's do some math:

The value of one human life = infinity.

A murderer who takes away one human life can only get an infinitely long punishment to redress the injustice, any finite duration of emprisonment is inferior to infinity and therefore can't compensate the loss of one life.
Thank you for confirming what i said multiple times.

Ab.so.fuckingly no idea about ethics.


(March 18, 2022 at 4:35 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: There is only one way for you to defend your doomed morality: assign a finite value to human life, in which case you will be the moral thug here.
Moral thug? I am not the one parading around his boner at the thought of promoting and asking for limitless suffering on other human beings!
I am not the one stuck in an ancient barbaric system, promoting cruelty and inhumanity, like you are.

Please stop embarrassing yourself. If you just would let go of your barbaric religion, you could actually learn something, you could become less of a monster and at some time maybe something resembling a decent human being.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
@kloro

If the value of one human life = infinity, then why does your god place the value of one human life at zero ?

Any murderer than can be stopped by a human could also be stopped by a god. That is if that god held any value for human life, which it doesn't.
Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 18, 2022 at 2:18 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 18, 2022 at 1:05 pm)Deesse23 Wrote: If you come across a crime scene where a rape is about to happen, what do you do?
I will try to stop it OFC.
Why?
Because you like to infringe on the free will of the rapist?


(March 15, 2022 at 2:27 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: If he were to negate injustice altogether at all times, this would jeopardize the free will of moral agents.
Allowing rape to occur is part of allowing moral agents to exercise their free will.
Please reconcile this.


(March 18, 2022 at 2:18 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: But you seem to ignore that the rapist has free will too. If God intervenes to stop one rapist, he has no reason not to stop all the other crimes that are committed, and free will obviously cannot exist anymore.
Oh, wow, the mental gymnastics here are record braking.
You claim that you would stop a rapist, but your god would and should not, and your god is the moral superior agent!?  Hilarious  Hilarious  Hilarious
Why dont you try to be "better", and like your god do not stop the rapist?

As already said: Letting the rapist have some free will does not equal to allow him to rape. I am baffled to have to point this out to you.

Is that your theology? To hold your god to lesser moral standards than yourself, so you can explain away all his moral failings?  Hehe
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 18, 2022 at 11:18 am)Klorophyll Wrote: To
why are you still regurgitating this non-sense? The length of the punishement is obviously not proportional to the length of the crime. Murdering someone or stealing them only takes seconds or minutes, and the punishment may be lifelong.

So your assertion above is a non-sequitur, +1 to fallacy tally.

But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?
Why do you want to burn their skin off and then reform their skin and burn it in an endless cycle?
Why don’t you sit with him and talk about the problem?
Get to know him. Get to know his issues. Try to give a hug once in a while.

We need to start this process of healing with you bc it looks like you have been trained to use extreme violence for basically any crime.


Quote:I am obviously relying on Islamic scripture whenever I make assertions about God's intentions. In the Qur'an, God repeatedly invites to think and contemplate His signs, this obviously entails a brain capable of thinking properly.

The Koran is not evidence that an advanced civilization or aliens or gods came from outer space or another dimension just like the pyramids are not evidence of aliens coming to Earth, just like the Nazca geoglyphs are not evidence of aliens needing a landing strip, just like the Maya artworks and burial locations are not evidence of aliens coming to Earth, just like Stonehenge, just like the statues of Easter Island.

Some ancient humans had talent to make artwork, to speak and to be leaders in their communists and had the talent to be leaders of men (priests and shaman or whatever you want to call them).

You asked me how I can trust human logic and I gave a reasonable reason.
You didn’t. You are just claiming their is a jewish god and his brain works fine and you haven’t even shown us the jewish god.


Quote:Your argument was that mathematical thinking is a byproduct of our struggle for survival, which is the naturalist argument. Be that as it may, we may have become good enough in some mental tasks, this still that doesn't mean our brain will reliably lead us to anything true. Just because humans excelled at this highly competitive contest of natural selection doesn't make their brain wired for truth.

Nature is observable. Evolution theory along with other sections of science all come together to support evolution theory.
So whatever we observe, we try to follow in the path of science rather than claiming aliens or gods or alien-gods did this and that and that they visited the Earth and built monuments for humans or built books for humans or telecommunicated via a subspace satellite array from dimension X directly into the brain of Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George.

Such stories about Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George are wonderful works of science-fiction.
You won’t be able to demonstrate that these aliens or alien-gods and gods have visited Earth.

Quote:this still that doesn't mean our brain will reliably lead us to anything true.

To me, it looks like it is working fine.
I write programs. They work as I wish. I am not claiming to be the best programmer in the world and it takes some time debugging but eventually, I output a functional product.
Calculators, TVs, VHS players, the space shuttle are all products of science. Do they work well or not?

They work just fine.

Scientific concepts, mathematical models seem to work fine. Once in a while, we are able to make predictions that turn out to match what we find in nature.

So, it looks like science is doing well.

So, where is the problem?

You believe in the jewish god and you believe that this god’s brain works correctly and that he designed your brain to work correctly.

So, we both think that our brain is working fine.
So, I fail to see what point you are trying to make.
Is your point the following:
“If there is a jewish god and he designed our brains, then this is a guarantee that our brain is functioning properly but if our brain is designed by nature, then there is no guarantee that our brain is working properly.”


Quote:Tuning obviously is possible because it happened, otherwise neither you nor I would be here. We just disagree on what best explains this tuning, you think it is a brute fact, I think it requires explanation. This entails you reject the so-called PSR(principle of sufficient reason), rejecting it doesn't come without a cost, which I hope you're ready to accept.


What tuning are you talking about?


Quote:The word "nature" is nothing than the sum total of stuff around us. Maybe life forms capable of self-replication have capabilites, when taken by themselves. But by saying "nature does have capabilities" you're simply commiting a fallacy of composition.


Yes, nature is the sum total of stuff around us.
Yes, life forms that we find on Earth have self-replications abilities. So do certain molecules.
I’m not sure what you mean by
But by saying "nature does have capabilities" you're simply commiting a fallacy of composition.

can you provide an example of what nature is not able to do?


Quote:Again, free will has zero weight in your objections. You just repeat what atheists and antitheists have always done: they consider God responsible of everything by negating free will to advance their argument from evil. Here is some news for you: the argument from evil was debunked in specialized literature a while ago, and evil here includes natural evil too, which would've been a better card for you to play.

You need to do better than using an outdated argument.


I am not making an argument.
I am just saying that if someone has the ability, and it is easy for them to prevent a crime, yet just sits and watches the crime and does nothing to stop it is an immoral being.
Therefore, the jewish god is immoral.
I’m not sure why you are talking about free will. You seem to be saying that you wish a rape to occur, that you choose not to interfere.


Quote:You seem to put the modern criminal system on a pedestal. Maybe you forget its complete inability to punish heads of state or anyone with some influence, even if they happen to be war criminals. Can your modern court system do anything to Putin as he is killing children right now?

Islam forbids killing women even if they are enemy combatants, does your modern court system do that?

The court system is one thing. Military action is another thing. It is obvious that the USA and allies do not wish to start WW3.
Can we punish head of states? Yes. In the city of Laval and Montreal, the mayors were caught and prosecuted.

Source:
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/former-laval...-1.1273711
https://corruption.net/canada-montreal-a...ion-probe/
https://corruption.net/canada-former-mon...orruption/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-montr...GB20130617

I don’t see any reason to not shoot women soldiers. Why should there be a gender bias?
During warfare, the enemy is an enemy.
LOL. I guess we should have a 100% women army and invade all muslim countries.


Quote:Obviously, neither you nor I believe the Bible in its present form is God's words. It has become nothing more than an anthology of ancient texts and wisdoms. We do believe, though, that it was initially the word of God.

I understand that you believe that the Tanakh or Bible and the Koran comes from the jewish god.

Quote:Your lack of imagination obviously has no bearing on the credibility of the accounts about heaven and hell, also you're assuming God will make us capable of feeling bored in the purported afterlife. Obviously this assumption has no support in scripture.

But none of that matters in this discussion as you don't believe in a god in the first place.

Right. Imagination. That’s my problem.
So tell me about your imagination about heaven. Give it your best shot.
Sure, if you want to believe that the jewish god will fix your brain so that you don’t feel certain emotions, go for it.


Quote:But none of that matters in this discussion as you don't believe in a god in the first place.


I am going to have to correct you on that.
It matters a lot.
We need to talk about these things to the fullest extent possible.
We need to push these discussion to its limits.

Just because someone has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am your god.” doesn’t mean that you have to bow down to it and then go to the bathroom and wash your feet and lick his ass.
Just because someone knows how to make a cell in his lab, or make a proton in his lab, or make a universe in his lab doesn’t automatically mean that you should lower yourself.
All this is just know how.
If your watch is from Timex, do you go and build temples for Timex, bow down to the Timex engineers and lick their asses?
Making a watch is just know how. They went to school and studied and used their creativity and know how.

Maybe, one day we’ll send you to “god” school and you’ll learn how to make universes with a lot of balls (stars and planets) and maybe you’ll make some life form that will be wowed by your ball making abilities.

Who knows. Maybe you’ll be a better god than the jewish god.
Do you think you can be better than him?
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Islam forbids killing women even if they are enemy combatants, does your modern court system do that?

According to sharia, stuff like apostasy and adultery are punishable by death, even if you are a woman.

For example:

In Pakistan, 1,000 women die in ‘honor killings’ annually.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn...happening/
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
[quote='Ferrocyanide' pid='2093965' dateline='1647729195']
Quote:this still that doesn't mean our brain will reliably lead us to anything true.
Like conclusions about the existence of gods?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
(March 18, 2022 at 11:18 am)Klorophyll Wrote: To
why are you still regurgitating this non-sense? The length of the punishement is obviously not proportional to the length of the crime. Murdering someone or stealing them only takes seconds or minutes, and the punishment may be lifelong.

So your assertion above is a non-sequitur, +1 to fallacy tally.

But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?
Why do you want to burn their skin off and then reform their skin and burn it in an endless cycle?
Why don’t you sit with him and talk about the problem?
Get to know him. Get to know his issues. Try to give a hug once in a while.

We need to start this process of healing with you bc it looks like you have been trained to use extreme violence for basically any crime.


Quote:I am obviously relying on Islamic scripture whenever I make assertions about God's intentions. In the Qur'an, God repeatedly invites to think and contemplate His signs, this obviously entails a brain capable of thinking properly.

The Koran is not evidence that an advanced civilization or aliens or gods came from outer space or another dimension just like the pyramids are not evidence of aliens coming to Earth, just like the Nazca geoglyphs are not evidence of aliens needing a landing strip, just like the Maya artworks and burial locations are not evidence of aliens coming to Earth, just like Stonehenge, just like the statues of Easter Island.

Some ancient humans had talent to make artwork, to speak and to be leaders in their communists and had the talent to be leaders of men (priests and shaman or whatever you want to call them).

You asked me how I can trust human logic and I gave a reasonable reason.
You didn’t. You are just claiming their is a jewish god and his brain works fine and you haven’t even shown us the jewish god.


Quote:Your argument was that mathematical thinking is a byproduct of our struggle for survival, which is the naturalist argument. Be that as it may, we may have become good enough in some mental tasks, this still that doesn't mean our brain will reliably lead us to anything true. Just because humans excelled at this highly competitive contest of natural selection doesn't make their brain wired for truth.

Nature is observable. Evolution theory along with other sections of science all come together to support evolution theory.
So whatever we observe, we try to follow in the path of science rather than claiming aliens or gods or alien-gods did this and that and that they visited the Earth and built monuments for humans or built books for humans or telecommunicated via a subspace satellite array from dimension X directly into the brain of Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George.

Such stories about Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George are wonderful works of science-fiction.
You won’t be able to demonstrate that these aliens or alien-gods and gods have visited Earth.

Quote:this still that doesn't mean our brain will reliably lead us to anything true.

To me, it looks like it is working fine.
I write programs. They work as I wish. I am not claiming to be the best programmer in the world and it takes some time debugging but eventually, I output a functional product.
Calculators, TVs, VHS players, the space shuttle are all products of science. Do they work well or not?

They work just fine.

Scientific concepts, mathematical models seem to work fine. Once in a while, we are able to make predictions that turn out to match what we find in nature.

So, it looks like science is doing well.

So, where is the problem?

You believe in the jewish god and you believe that this god’s brain works correctly and that he designed your brain to work correctly.

So, we both think that our brain is working fine.
So, I fail to see what point you are trying to make.
Is your point the following:
“If there is a jewish god and he designed our brains, then this is a guarantee that our brain is functioning properly but if our brain is designed by nature, then there is no guarantee that our brain is working properly.”


Quote:Tuning obviously is possible because it happened, otherwise neither you nor I would be here. We just disagree on what best explains this tuning, you think it is a brute fact, I think it requires explanation. This entails you reject the so-called PSR(principle of sufficient reason), rejecting it doesn't come without a cost, which I hope you're ready to accept.


What tuning are you talking about?


Quote:The word "nature" is nothing than the sum total of stuff around us. Maybe life forms capable of self-replication have capabilites, when taken by themselves. But by saying "nature does have capabilities" you're simply commiting a fallacy of composition.


Yes, nature is the sum total of stuff around us.
Yes, life forms that we find on Earth have self-replications abilities. So do certain molecules.
I’m not sure what you mean by
But by saying "nature does have capabilities" you're simply commiting a fallacy of composition.

can you provide an example of what nature is not able to do?


Quote:Again, free will has zero weight in your objections. You just repeat what atheists and antitheists have always done: they consider God responsible of everything by negating free will to advance their argument from evil. Here is some news for you: the argument from evil was debunked in specialized literature a while ago, and evil here includes natural evil too, which would've been a better card for you to play.

You need to do better than using an outdated argument.


I am not making an argument.
I am just saying that if someone has the ability, and it is easy for them to prevent a crime, yet just sits and watches the crime and does nothing to stop it is an immoral being.
Therefore, the jewish god is immoral.
I’m not sure why you are talking about free will. You seem to be saying that you wish a rape to occur, that you choose not to interfere.


Quote:You seem to put the modern criminal system on a pedestal. Maybe you forget its complete inability to punish heads of state or anyone with some influence, even if they happen to be war criminals. Can your modern court system do anything to Putin as he is killing children right now?

Islam forbids killing women even if they are enemy combatants, does your modern court system do that?

The court system is one thing. Military action is another thing. It is obvious that the USA and allies do not wish to start WW3.
Can we punish head of states? Yes. In the city of Laval and Montreal, the mayors were caught and prosecuted.

Source:
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/former-laval...-1.1273711
https://corruption.net/canada-montreal-a...ion-probe/
https://corruption.net/canada-former-mon...orruption/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-montr...GB20130617

I don’t see any reason to not shoot women soldiers. Why should there be a gender bias?
During warfare, the enemy is an enemy.
LOL. I guess we should have a 100% women army and invade all muslim countries.


Quote:Obviously, neither you nor I believe the Bible in its present form is God's words. It has become nothing more than an anthology of ancient texts and wisdoms. We do believe, though, that it was initially the word of God.

I understand that you believe that the Tanakh or Bible and the Koran comes from the jewish god.

Quote:Your lack of imagination obviously has no bearing on the credibility of the accounts about heaven and hell, also you're assuming God will make us capable of feeling bored in the purported afterlife. Obviously this assumption has no support in scripture.

But none of that matters in this discussion as you don't believe in a god in the first place.

Right. Imagination. That’s my problem.
So tell me about your imagination about heaven. Give it your best shot.
Sure, if you want to believe that the jewish god will fix your brain so that you don’t feel certain emotions, go for it.


Quote:But none of that matters in this discussion as you don't believe in a god in the first place.


I am going to have to correct you on that.
It matters a lot.
We need to talk about these things to the fullest extent possible.
We need to push these discussion to its limits.

Just because someone has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am your god.” doesn’t mean that you have to bow down to it and then go to the bathroom and wash your feet and lick his ass.
Just because someone knows how to make a cell in his lab, or make a proton in his lab, or make a universe in his lab doesn’t automatically mean that you should lower yourself.
All this is just know how.
If your watch is from Timex, do you go and build temples for Timex, bow down to the Timex engineers and lick their asses?
Making a watch is just know how. They went to school and studied and used their creativity and know how.

Maybe, one day we’ll send you to “god” school and you’ll learn how to make universes with a lot of balls (stars and planets) and maybe you’ll make some life form that will be wowed by your ball making abilities.

Who knows. Maybe you’ll be a better god than the jewish god.
Do you think you can be better than him?
It's more possible now to punish heads of state or powerful people than it's ever been
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply



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