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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 9:29 am
Quote: It's a good argument to be skeptical of the theory of evolution. It's not settled science as atheists claim
No it's not a good argument against evolution and it is settled science as actual scientists claim.
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 9:30 am
Quote:Prick yourself with a needle
That won't prove the existence or non-existence of qualia
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 10:07 am
(January 14, 2023 at 9:29 am)Helios Wrote: Quote: It's a good argument to be skeptical of the theory of evolution. It's not settled science as atheists claim
No it's not a good argument against evolution and it is settled science as actual scientists claim. They don't claim that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6117425/
(January 14, 2023 at 9:30 am)Helios Wrote: Quote:Prick yourself with a needle
That won't prove the existence or non-existence of qualia It proves that pain exists and pain is a type of qualia
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 10:22 am
Quote:They don't claim that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6117425/
This paper doesn't refute the idea that evolution is a settled science. Just because it has not solved everything.
Quote:It proves that pain exists and pain is a type of qualia
No it doesn't
"Change was inevitable"
Nemo sicut deus debet esse!
“No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 11:00 am
(January 14, 2023 at 9:22 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: (January 14, 2023 at 7:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Some very clever philosophers have made some very clever arguments that qualia either don’t exist Prick yourself with a needle
Daniel Dennett:
https://open-mind.net/papers/how-our-bel...-h-bassler
Paul Churchland:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43153848
Gary Drescher
https://www.gwern.net/docs/statistics/de...ndreal.pdf
There’s plenty more, but those will do to be getting on with.
(As for pricking myself with a needle, that’s better answered by functionalism than by qualia.)
Boru
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 11:10 am
(January 13, 2023 at 10:10 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: he is probably under the influence of a certain Russian Christian mystic.
Rasputin? (An odious peasant who had the nerve to call himself a monk.)
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 4:09 pm
(January 14, 2023 at 6:13 am)GrandizerII Wrote: (January 13, 2023 at 10:14 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: Subjective experience seems to be too complex to be just a by-product. We can't even reproduce a single artificial quale.
Maybe, but we don't know. Nobody has a clue how consciousness works, and while it seems like consciousness is not necessary for our survival, maybe one day this will be shown to be false.
Last I checked the ability to plan for tomorrow was a survival advantage. Other organisms can only adapt as quickly as evolution changes them from generation to generation. Conscious organisms can adapt their behaviour from one instant to the next while evolution is still tying its sneakers.
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 14, 2023 at 4:51 pm
(This post was last modified: January 14, 2023 at 4:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The idea is that planning and behavioral adaptation or something with equivalent outcomes could be instantiated some other way - and..yeah, sure - I think so..just as I can agree that consciousness isn't necessary for survival. Conscious agents, or conscious reports...it doesn't really matter, seems to be at least one of the ways of doing some things. The whole p-zombie setup is nothing more or other than precisely this assertion. As for necessity....a person can't logically deny multiple realizability while asserting multiple realizability.
"What if this behavior can come about other ways?" - well..yeah, sure. However this other identical behavior with a different cause came about would be expected to exert selective pressure as well. Let's call the p-zombies organ the Mimicker. It doesn't have a brain and it doesn't really think like us, but it's mimicker makes it act just like us. I'd say to expect similar outcomes in similar survival scenarios.....?
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 15, 2023 at 9:06 am
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2023 at 9:07 am by GrandizerII.)
(January 14, 2023 at 10:07 am)Dmitry1983 Wrote: (January 14, 2023 at 9:29 am)Helios Wrote: No it's not a good argument against evolution and it is settled science as actual scientists claim. They don't claim that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6117425/
The author of this article makes some great points that I largely agree with. Despite evolution being settled (from a biological perspective), there is difficulty coming up with a good evolutionary theory of consciousness.
You probably need to read the article properly, since it doesn't say what you claim it says. Quite the opposite, actually.
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RE: The Scripture Is False And The Biblical God Is Dead.
January 15, 2023 at 9:16 am
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2023 at 9:17 am by GrandizerII.)
(January 14, 2023 at 4:09 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: (January 14, 2023 at 6:13 am)GrandizerII Wrote: Maybe, but we don't know. Nobody has a clue how consciousness works, and while it seems like consciousness is not necessary for our survival, maybe one day this will be shown to be false.
Last I checked the ability to plan for tomorrow was a survival advantage. Other organisms can only adapt as quickly as evolution changes them from generation to generation. Conscious organisms can adapt their behaviour from one instant to the next while evolution is still tying its sneakers.
I agree with you that planning for tomorrow has practical utility. I don't think even Dmitry is disputing that.
The question is whether phenomenal consciousness (that which involves qualia) has any practical utility. Let's consider the example brought up by Dmitry: pain induced by a needle. Whatever do we need to have this awful feeling of pain for? Is our body being conditioned/primed to avoid/prepare for such similar pain-triggering stimuli in the future not sufficient to keep us surviving?
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