Is this Simply Going to go on Forever?

[Ivan Denisovich]

@Ivan Denisovich

I'm quite sure that committing genocide will not make others friendly toward israel so perhaps first step to stop being surrounded by enemies should be stopping being criminal regime? Just a thought.
 

I’m doubtful that would help. Most of the Muslim world sees Israel as an intrinsically criminal regime. Even if the Israeli government would stop it unquestionably evil behaviour, pleaded with the Arab world for forgiveness, made monetary and material compensation for all the horrid shit they’ve done since the 1940s, and turned their leaders over to The Hague to be tried for war crimes, Muslims would STILL call for Israel’s destruction.

Boru

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Ivan Denisovich


I’m doubtful that would help. Most of the Muslim world sees Israel as an intrinsically criminal regime. Even if the Israeli government would stop it unquestionably evil behaviour, pleaded with the Arab world for forgiveness, made monetary and material compensation for all the horrid shit they’ve done since the 1940s, and turned their leaders over to The Hague to be tried for war crimes, Muslims would STILL call for Israel’s destruction.

Boru

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

But they’re viewed by Muslims as criminal not because of what they do, but by the fact that they exist at all. That’s why I don’t think Israel stopping being a criminal regime would change anything.

Boru

[Ivan Denisovich]

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

But they’re viewed by Muslims as criminal not because of what they do, but by the fact that they exist at all. That’s why I don’t think Israel stopping being a criminal regime would change anything.

Boru

It may be. But there is hardly a possibility of relations improving while they remain being criminal regime.

It is irrelevant to me what israel thinks about it's neighbors and what it's neighbors think about israel. This rogue state should be stopped and that's all that is to it; maybe israel after forced regime change would improve relations with surrounding countries, maybe not but as far as I am concerned it is immaterial. It's stopping genocide that matters.

[Deesse23]

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

But they’re viewed by Muslims as criminal not because of what they do, but by the fact that they exist at all. That’s why I don’t think Israel stopping being a criminal regime would change anything.

Boru

It would be a good start though.
I dont know if the allies believed that the Nürnberg trials were going to be effective*, but it was a good start.

*particularly because everyone knew one of them was still knee-deep himself into what was prosecuted at Nürnberg.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I guess I’m not making myself clear: there is NOTHING that Israel could do or stop doing that would improve their relations with Muslim nations. They view Israel as a criminal regime by simply existing. If Israel were to change its ways immediately and do all the other things I mentioned earlier, it would not move the Muslim world a scintilla closer to making nice. Why? Because the conflict is not a political issue at heart, but a religious one, and Islam is a particularly bullheaded religion. 1/10 of the Muslim majority countries in the world recognize Israel, but recognition isn’t remotely the same as acceptance.

And Israel is no better. ‘We will never give up Jerusalem’ is less of a political statement than it is a religious one. Until and unless both sides fundamentally alter the notion that God wants them - and only them - to occupy the same worthless piece of desert, nothing will change.

And I don’t like that any better than you do.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

@Ivan Denisovich


I’m doubtful that would help. Most of the Muslim world sees Israel as an intrinsically criminal regime. Even if the Israeli government would stop it unquestionably evil behaviour, pleaded with the Arab world for forgiveness, made monetary and material compensation for all the horrid shit they’ve done since the 1940s, and turned their leaders over to The Hague to be tried for war crimes, Muslims would STILL call for Israel’s destruction.

Boru

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

I'm going to speak anecdotally here, very little of what I'm about to say is a fact by any lights - and just because I say it doesn't mean it's what I feel, what I would do, or what I think is right...there's a reason they never let people like me near authority.  So let's get the inconvenient facts out of the way.  The majority of the people affected by the israeli admins decisions in this or any other thing are not getting what they deserve, not reaping what they've sown.  Mostly because they've not yet lived long enough or been in a position to sow anything in the first place.  To deserve anything at all.  This is a truism of conflict.  

The guys holding the guns on any side are more or less volunteers.  I know that's an over-simplification but it's one I would reassert right before I shot a guy holding a gun.  Now, maybe, they've been well indoctrinated and we could expect them to grow up and do The Bad Thing™...but I think we can at least have the sort of patience any other killer does and wait till they fuck up.  As for the rest of them.  If we're interested in a lasting peace, we have to be willing to accept that many people will not, in fact, reap what they've sown.  That they will not get what they deserve...and not because that's a glitch or they slip through the cracks, because it's explicitly on offer.  To sweeten the idea of not doing The Bad Thing.  So long as the outcome of peace is as bad or worse than the outcome of conflict we'd have to be loons to expect a person to put down their gun.  

Long winded, I know, but if the goal is making sure people get what they deserve, we're talking about a fools errand.  That's not peace, it's revenge.  An endless cycle of reprisal. In short, how we got here to begin with.

[Thumpalumpacus]

israel is a criminal regime flaunting international law that has been condemned by 45 UN resolutions (to 2013). So yes, it is quite probable that they would be hated no matter what they would do but israel only reap what it had sown. I don't have any sympathy for genocidal regimes and this one ain't unique or special; they can deal with hate they so richly deserve.

But they’re viewed by Muslims as criminal not because of what they do, but by the fact that they exist at all. That’s why I don’t think Israel stopping being a criminal regime would change anything.

Boru

It wouldn't. But it would mean some leveraging of the moral marketplace.

I think both sides have plenty of blame to own. Who changes their ways? Muslims too are seen as criminal by the Israelis, a fact shown by Israeli occupation and settlements and the current genocide. You're hungry and Muslim? Tough shit, here's a bullet.

Who jumps off the merry-go-round first? They both stay on of their own accord ... they both own blame for this bullshit.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I guess I’m not making myself clear: there is NOTHING that Israel could do or stop doing that would improve their relations with Muslim nations. They view Israel as a criminal regime by simply existing. If Israel were to change its ways immediately and do all the other things I mentioned earlier, it would not move the Muslim world a scintilla closer to making nice. Why? Because the conflict is not a political issue at heart, but a religious one, and Islam is a particularly bullheaded religion. 1/10 of the Muslim majority countries in the world recognize Israel, but recognition isn’t remotely the same as acceptance.

And Israel is no better. ‘We will never give up Jerusalem’ is less of a political statement than it is a religious one. Until and unless both sides fundamentally alter the notion that God wants them - and only them - to occupy the same worthless piece of desert, nothing will change.

And I don’t like that any better than you do.

Boru

What it could do is change the political perspective outside the conflict, which might make for movement. Indian independence got a big boost from Gandhi arguing against violence, and turning opinion against imperial desires.

It' not perfect, admittedly and of course, but such action can change outside opinion. Indeed, we see that here in America, where pro-Israel sentiment is dropping precisely because the IDF are seen as beating up on noncombatants.

[Fireball]

But they’re viewed by Muslims as criminal not because of what they do, but by the fact that they exist at all. That’s why I don’t think Israel stopping being a criminal regime would change anything.

Boru

It wouldn't. But it would mean some leveraging of the moral marketplace.

I think both sides have plenty of blame to own. Who changes their ways? Muslims too are seen as criminal by the Israelis, a fact shown by Israeli occupation and settlements and the current genocide. You're hungry and Muslim? Tough shit, here's a bullet.

Who jumps off the merry-go-round first? They both stay on of their own accord ... they both own blame for this bullshit.

Having mounted the tiger...

[Leonardo17]

Belaqua:
“More Israelis are openly talking about "Greater Israel." This is the goal of taking over all that land that was originally promised to Abraham in Genesis 15:18.
 
This is bounded on the west by the Nile, and on the East by the Euphrates. It includes all of Palestine, all of Lebanon, and parts of Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. This helps explain why Israel is bombing Lebanon and Syria with impunity, destroying whole villages which pose no threat.”
 
Israel does not have that many people. But yes they are willing to take all of Gaza and the place they refer to as Samara and Judea. That’s more realizable.
 
The Palestinian resistance movement used to be a Moscow-backed leftist movement that was truly about supporting the Palestinian people against the extremes of the capitalist world order. You know, in those days there were hardline leftists leaving their countries to fight with Yassar Arafat (and other groups) against Israel.
 
Today it’s all messed up. Hamas is not fighting Israel. Hamas is a CIA / Mossad creation that is there to dismantle any type of true Palestinian statehood and/or resistance movement.
 
Last 3 paragraphs: Every major power in the 20th century wanted to control oil resources. I even believe that Hitler wanted Russia for its oil resources in the Astrakhan, Uralsk and Grozny regions. So it’s normal for the US to want to be in the Middle East and have a country like Israel on its side. Just like in 1956 France and Britain invaded Egypt (with the support of Israel) in order to not let Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalize the entire canal.
 
So this are “normal” in our “not so civilized” era. But there has to be limits and there are limits. The current Israeli government is the most right-wing government ever. None of them is talking about logical solutions. In fact Netanyahu is possibly the most logical man in the whole pack.
 
So I don’t know. Do people even still believe in interpretations of the Torah in shaping their current policies? So I’m not so sure
 
Ivan Denisovich:
 
Milosevich was a butcher. And back in those days Europe had less self-awareness than today. So they were simply watching until Mr. Clinton finally decided to make a move.
 
I’m not a Netanyahu specialist but the Hamas still came to his country murdering people for fun and shooting everything with cameras. And things are moving in Israel too.
 
The fact that a lot of people somehow elected someone does not mean that the ordinary citizens (those with minimal mental faculties) support these leaders and their actions (believe me I know).
 
So this is a messed up situation as well. So again: I don’t know
 
Brian-Boru:
 
I don’t know a lot about Zionism. Logically it is true that Israel should not have been established there some 2000 years after the Roman Emperor Titus forced the Jews into exile and renamed the area from Judea to Palestine. It’s just a lot of time to come back and claim something.
 
Muslims have nothing but land with all sorts of resources at their disposal. I believe that Israel decided to sit there quietly, no one would ever bother to mess with them because all Arab countries have all sorts of problems they need urgent resolution already. People forget how small these geographic areas are.