It is a bit frustrating reading through Ecclesiastes

[emjay]

@GrandizerII

Hi there. Since you seem to be quite interested in the study of the accuracy of the Bible, I was wondering if you could recommend any books that you'd consider essential reads on the inaccuracy of the Bible. Asking Chatgpt about it the top name that seems to come up is Bart D. Ehrman, so I was wondering if you'd agree with that recommendation and/or have any others? I've never really paid that much attention to these sorts of books before, considering them too technical sounding etc, but I'm now at a point where I think that if there is any convincing evidence against the accuracy of the Bible through historical or archaeological study etc, I need to know about it. Thanks if you can help

I wouldn’t say it’s the accuracy of the Bible that I’m interested in, but more about what the texts themselves are saying. And sometimes that means I have to presume/conclude redactions and such in order to make the most sense out of these texts.

As for who to read on the inaccuracy of the Bible, then pretty much every work of Ehrman’s that I know of is a good starting point. His works are very accessible to the layperson.

Of course, this is assuming by inaccuracy, you mean in the literal/historical sense.

Personally, I take it for granted at this point that the Bible is inaccurate in this sense, but it’s not something I am invested in nor is it something that many Christians or Jews think is a problem either.

Thanks for your reply.

That's kind of what I expected, and why I haven't put much stock in these sorts of books so far... the thought that whatever they talk about is going to be too subtle, technical, or perhaps even irrelevant that it's not going to affects people's beliefs on the Bible much on either side... but thanks for saying Ehrman was worth reading.

Sadly after recent events in my life, I've lost a lot of confidence in my atheist position, and need to recover it, just to get my peace of mind back if nothing else, but this isn't looking like it's going to help very much, but thanks anyway for your thoughts.

[GrandizerII]

I wouldn’t say it’s the accuracy of the Bible that I’m interested in, but more about what the texts themselves are saying. And sometimes that means I have to presume/conclude redactions and such in order to make the most sense out of these texts.

As for who to read on the inaccuracy of the Bible, then pretty much every work of Ehrman’s that I know of is a good starting point. His works are very accessible to the layperson.

Of course, this is assuming by inaccuracy, you mean in the literal/historical sense.

Personally, I take it for granted at this point that the Bible is inaccurate in this sense, but it’s not something I am invested in nor is it something that many Christians or Jews think is a problem either.

Thanks for your reply.

That's kind of what I expected, and why I haven't put much stock in these sorts of books so far... the thought that whatever they talk about is going to be too subtle, technical, or perhaps even irrelevant that it's not going to affects people's beliefs on the Bible much on either side... but thanks for saying Ehrman was worth reading.

Sadly after recent events in my life, I've lost a lot of confidence in my atheist position, and need to recover it, just to get my peace of mind back if nothing else, but this isn't looking like it's going to help very much, but thanks anyway for your thoughts.

Hey emjay, looks like you’re going through a lot. I’m sorry to hear this. I hope you find the resources needed to get through this. Best of luck.

[The Grand Nudger]

Ehrman for the nt, finkelstein for the ot. They're good summarizers and communicators, and if you want to know more starting with the sources and authors they reference isn't the worst.

Thing is, it doesn't really matter to christianity how or whether the story is true as told. A person could believe it all happened exactly as every jot and tittle describes and this does not make them a christian. Credulous, superstitious, borderline braindead...sure..but not christian. To be a christian a person has to hear the pitch and agree with it. Not just that it happened. That it's right and good and proper and they want a piece. Hallelujah!

People who think maybe there might be a god, and maybe some of the stuff happened in some way you could call accurate if you glimpsed at it in the right light on the right day of the lunar cycle, and so they call themselves christians. So they go through the motions - but aren't filled with the spirit? Matthew 7:21 tells us how that ends in the christian cinematic universe...and there, without any doubt, magic book got something right.

[emjay]

Ehrman for the nt, finkelstein for the ot.  They're good summarizers and communicators, and if you want to know more starting with the sources and authors they reference isn't the worst.

Thing is, it doesn't really matter to christianity how or whether the story is true as told.  A person could believe it all happened exactly as every jot and tittle describes and this does not make them a christian.  Credulous, superstitious, borderline braindead...sure..but not christian.  To be a christian a person has to hear the pitch and agree with it.  Not just that it happened.  That it's right and good and proper and they want a piece.  Hallelujah!

People who think maybe there might be a god, and maybe some of the stuff happened in some way you could call accurate if you glimpsed at it in the right light on the right day of the lunar cycle, and so they call themselves christians.  So they go through the motions - but aren't filled with the spirit?  Matthew 7:21 tells us how that ends in the christian cinematic universe...and there, without any doubt, magic book got something right.

Yes, what you're saying plays a big part in what I've been going through. I neither respect nor trust the God as I understand it, and therefore if Christianity is true I'm destined for hell, it's that simple. Like you I do not agree with the pitch as you put it, and therefore could never join Christianity in spirit even if I was convinced of the accuracy of it or took some sort of Pascal's Wager approach to it. But I was, and still am, fearing it's truth because of what has turned out to be the withdrawal symptoms of a particular drug they had me on and too rapidly removed me from. What it caused was extreme depression and intense, overwhelming, and all-covering emotional moods that I've never experienced before and hope to never again. Apparently they're due to end about two weeks if I eat right and sleep right, and ride it out right. At it's worst I was basically running round in these terrified circles, thinking about and being fed so much about Christianity, but eventually I decided enough was enough and I had to make a stand of some sort, just get back on my feet, so I decided that I would focus my life going forward on Buddhist meditation and Buddhist compassion, things that help with enduring pain both in life, and potentially in afterlife too if it exists... what ChatGPT called a similar concept to Pascal's Wager. After making that 'stand', it seemed to change the character of this depression from the specific to something else; wide ranging and overwhelming feelings/moods that just cover my whole mind, which is where I am now, and can change in an instant, thankfully sometimes to positive feelings, but the negative ones when they come are simply the worst feelings I've ever felt. Full stop. Just a total sense of something like sadness, which I could neither pin down but at the same time, in meditation for instance, could not fail to notice either because it was just everywhere in my mind. Anyway, at the moment I'm just hoping that feeling doesn't come back, and hoping I only have to ride this out for two more weeks like predicted, but who knows how long it could last, sadly.

I still don't understand what you were trying to say to me the other day, but I'm betting it has something to do with this. That you and I are actually very similar, in the sense of expecting to go to hell if it turns out that it exists. Thankfully my mind does seem to be getting a bit clearer these days, at least when I don't have these overwhelming moods/feelings, and gradually I'm starting to rebuild my confidence that Christianity isn't true, but it's going to take some time. But if it does turn out to be true, I guess the only thing we can take comfort in, maybe, is the compassion we... people... have for each other in there. It may be powerless, in an eternal Christian hell compared to impermanent Buddhist hells, as some Buddhists seek to compassionately enter and not leave until they've freed everyone, but nonetheless I think it could help. Anyway I'm sorry if I sound silly with all this, I certainly didn't expect to be going through any of this, but hopefully I'll start making more sense again soon

[Mister Agenda]

Having the logically correct opinion on the existence or nonexistence of gods or God isn't more important than your mental health. Believe what you need to, to keep going, if you're able to.

[emjay]

Having the logically correct opinion on the existence or nonexistence of gods or God isn't more important than your mental health. Believe what you need to, to keep going, if you're able to.

Sorry, could you rephrase that, I'm having trouble understanding what you mean? Basically at the moment I guess I'd say that my mind is much more suggestible than it would usually be, because of this drug reaction, but hopefully that will pass in time.

[Mister Agenda]

I'm sorry, I guess I'm trying to say that atheism isn't something you have to be loyal to.

[emjay]

I'm sorry, I guess I'm trying to say that atheism isn't something you have to be loyal to.

Yes but it would certainly help if I believed it more, because the Buddhist approach I mentioned is more about how I would think I would have to deal with hell if it existed. But I'd rather not be thinking about hell at all. I'd rather be focusing on buddhism only for life not life and death, but that requires increasing my confidence in atheism.

[Mister Agenda]

Over the years I stopped worrying about hell being real and started finding the idea that it's real ridiculous. Fundie preachers make it sound as terrifying as possible to keep you in line, but Universalists make a scriptural case that hell isn't eternal.

Reminds me of a joke: Universalists thinkg God is too good to put them in hell, Unitarians think THEY'RE too good for God to put them in hell.

[emjay]

Over the years I stopped worrying about hell being real and started finding the idea that it's real ridiculous. Fundie preachers make it sound as terrifying as possible to keep you in line, but Universalists make a scriptural case that hell isn't eternal.

Reminds me of a joke: Universalists thinkg God is too good to put them in hell, Unitarians think THEY'RE too good for God to put them in hell.

Yep that's basically what I'm hoping for, so I'll be very happy if I ever get into the sort of state of mind you're in But those sorts of feelings, that I likewise had in the past, just got thrown out the window with that drug withdrawal reaction, but hopefully soon it will wear off and I can get back to normal.