It is a bit frustrating reading through Ecclesiastes

[arewethereyet]

We are stardust.

We started as dust and to dust we shall return. Hell doesn't factor in.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Over the years I stopped worrying about hell being real and started finding the idea that it's real ridiculous. Fundie preachers make it sound as terrifying as possible to keep you in line, but Universalists make a scriptural case that hell isn't eternal.

Reminds me of a joke: Universalists thinkg God is too good to put them in hell, Unitarians think THEY'RE too good for God to put them in hell.

Here’s an oldie but a goodie:

Did you hear about the UU terrorists? They go about burning question marks on people’s lawns.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm sorry, I guess I'm trying to say that atheism isn't something you have to be loyal to.

Yes but it would certainly help if I believed it more, because the Buddhist approach I mentioned is more about how I would think I would have to deal with hell if it existed. But I'd rather not be thinking about hell at all. I'd rather be focusing on buddhism only for life not life and death, but that requires increasing my confidence in atheism.

Perhaps it would help take the pressure off of increasing your confidence in atheism to consider all of the ways that gods and afterlives don't really have anything to do with one another, and those easy to miss ways they might. Maybe there are gods and no afterlives.  Maybe there are afterlives and no gods.  Maybe gods also have afterlives.  Maybe they're the only thing that doesn't.

You've got it more or less right in that both of us, if the christian story were true, would be going to hell.  I wonder, though, is it the destination or the desert?  Does the idea of ending up some place you've no control over bother you, or has this experience brought your self doubt and shame to the surface in novel and painful ways? If it's the latter, magic book speaks at length on grace, love, and forgiveness - and the ghost story doesn't have to be true for those to be valuable things, especially toward one's self. Ecclesiastes not so much - but it does drone on around the matter, commenting on the human condition.

[Thumpalumpacus]

How many worries did you have before you were born? How many do you think you'll have after you die?

I'm not afraid of not living. I'm not keen on the idea of a lingering death. I use elements of Buddhism and other outlooks to help me make it through the day.

[emjay]

How many worries did you have before you were born? How many do you think you'll have after you die?

I'm not afraid of not living. I'm not keen on the idea of a lingering death. I use elements of Buddhism and other outlooks to help me make it through the day.

That's basically just like how I used to feel, not long ago either, but sadly that injury and following illness turned it all on it's head. Now I'd give anything to get back to that state but it's going to take a long time I think, sadly. As it stands I can barely remember my life from just about three months ago, just before my injury. Now it feels like I have to redefine everything and reunderstand everything from scratch, and it's really hard and sometimes terrifying, and I wouldn't wish this state on anyone.

[Thumpalumpacus]

How many worries did you have before you were born? How many do you think you'll have after you die?

I'm not afraid of not living. I'm not keen on the idea of a lingering death. I use elements of Buddhism and other outlooks to help me make it through the day.

That's basically just like how I used to feel, not long ago either, but sadly that injury and following illness turned it all on it's head. Now I'd give anything to get back to that state but it's going to take a long time I think, sadly. As it stands I can barely remember my life from just about three months ago, just before my injury. Now it feels like I have to redefine everything and reunderstand everything from scratch, and it's really hard and sometimes terrifying, and I wouldn't wish this state on anyone.

What I garner from those questions I asked of both you and myself is that living in the moment is more important than worrying about a future I cannot control.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

That's basically just like how I used to feel, not long ago either, but sadly that injury and following illness turned it all on it's head. Now I'd give anything to get back to that state but it's going to take a long time I think, sadly. As it stands I can barely remember my life from just about three months ago, just before my injury. Now it feels like I have to redefine everything and reunderstand everything from scratch, and it's really hard and sometimes terrifying, and I wouldn't wish this state on anyone.

What I garner from those questions I asked of both you and myself is that living in the moment is more important than worrying about a future I cannot control.

Ecclesiastes 8:15. What a coinidink!

Boru

[emjay]

That's basically just like how I used to feel, not long ago either, but sadly that injury and following illness turned it all on it's head. Now I'd give anything to get back to that state but it's going to take a long time I think, sadly. As it stands I can barely remember my life from just about three months ago, just before my injury. Now it feels like I have to redefine everything and reunderstand everything from scratch, and it's really hard and sometimes terrifying, and I wouldn't wish this state on anyone.

What I garner from those questions I asked of both you and myself is that living in the moment is more important than worrying about a future I cannot control.

Are you talking about mindfulness? I try to do it and it does help sometimes (for instance going for a walk overall I'd say the times I was successful at just focusing on my breath, and the sensations etc was better than when I failed and got lost in, usually negative, trains of thought, and my walks tend to contain a bit of both) but I'm not good at doing it consistently, sadly, and this depression has made it even harder focusing on or finding meaning in the present or the future. My mental state is just a big blur at the moment.

[Angrboda]

I have a problem buying too much stuff and obsessing about small things. If I don't buy as much, I'll end up paying more for things and maybe doing without. If I don't go through things in my head before they happen, I'll be caught unprepared more often. On the other hand, is it worth finding room for all this stuff and the constant worrying about little things just to avoid those things? I'm not saying one way or another with you, but when we have troublesome mental habits, it's not often all good or all bad, there's a trade-off somewhere along the way which leads to those habits. And there are often incentives for us to maintain the behavior which we miss. We tend to be our own worst enemies, doing little things to shore up and maintain things we think we'd be better off without.

[emjay]

Yes but it would certainly help if I believed it more, because the Buddhist approach I mentioned is more about how I would think I would have to deal with hell if it existed. But I'd rather not be thinking about hell at all. I'd rather be focusing on buddhism only for life not life and death, but that requires increasing my confidence in atheism.

Perhaps it would help take the pressure off of increasing your confidence in atheism to consider all of the ways that gods and afterlives don't really have anything to do with one another, and those easy to miss ways they might. Maybe there are gods and no afterlives.  Maybe there are afterlives and no gods.  Maybe gods also have afterlives.  Maybe they're the only thing that doesn't.

You've got it more or less right in that both of us, if the christian story were true, would be going to hell.  I wonder, though, is it the destination or the desert?  Does the idea of ending up some place you've no control over bother you, or has this experience brought your self doubt and shame to the surface in novel and painful ways?  If it's the latter, magic book speaks at length on grace, love, and forgiveness - and the ghost story doesn't have to be true for those to be valuable things, especially toward one's self.  Ecclesiastes not so much - but it does drone on around the matter, commenting on the human condition.

Sorry I took so long to reply to this. I was pretty low and still sometimes am, and this felt like a lot to deal with in that state. You seemed to be suggesting looking at the bigger picture, which is something I'd usually be able to do much better, but not in this depressive state I've been in. Basically both my serotonin and my dopamine in my brain have been fucked with by being taken off the prescribed drug too fast, so in practical terms it means the serotonin leads to very intense mood changes, and the dopamine leads to basically a lack of will to do or usually also eat anything... it's like a chore to do anything usually fun or rewarding. So yeah, not a great state of mind to be in for nearly three weeks now, and with no idea really when or even if it's going to get any better. But today has been my best day I think, because I've been gradually trying to work on myself mentally, including using mindfulness more and more, in part now to try and understand my new mental state and adapt to it, and today actually enjoyed my first meal. And I've been reading a book on atheism that my mind finally feels open enough to process, "Why I am not a Christian" by Richard Carrier... very thorough, very big-picture... seems the sort of thing you might say... and to me I find it awesome. It's really helped bring my confidence back. So basically I'm starting to feel like I'm slowly healing now, and starting to feel a bit more hopeful of this weird and depressing mental state ending, but even if not, hoping that I can slowly learn how to adapt to it. Just thought I'd update you on the situation... thanks for your input